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Anonymous

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Matthew Birt  says:

Honda progress exposed Ducati weakness, says Valentino Rossi

Valentino Rossi reckons the performance improvements made by Honda in 2011 worsened the extent of the problems experienced by Ducati this season. Rossi has struggled to make any significant progress with Ducati’s GP11 machine and in a bid to improve his results, the Bologna factory rolled out a brand new bike called the GP11.1 for last weekend’s Assen round in Holland. The...

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  • Posted 4 years ago (29 June 2011 09:47)

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mocha01

Joined:

Dec 08

Posts: 9

mocha01 says:

Racers or developers?

Interesting one. You get riders that are racers and can't 'develop' a bike, some developers that can't race (comparatively speaking) and not many that do both. Stoner is clearly a racer that can't articulate or translate what he wants into a technical product, and I think same goes for Dani. Jorge appears to be a racer with the same inability. Going back in time, Ron Haslam was a good developer (don't get me wrong, great racer but I'm talking comparatives at the time), as was\is Doriano Romboni or Vito Guarechi. I think that Rossi is a racer\developer, but clearly the Duke behaves very differently to other bikes on the grid and so 'transforming' a reasonably performing Yamaha to a championship winning Yamaha as he did when he swapped from Honda is very different to doing the same at Ducati. Other than Stoner, no one has performed on the Duke whereas the Yamaha was already competitive, just needed a lttl bit more..but the Duke seems to need a lot more.

 

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Moaner

Joined:

Jun 11

Posts: 942

Moaner says:

Medic..... Medic.... Get a bloody medic in here

As Rawdawg aka 'Stoner fanboy' aka 'angry keyboard warrior' is close to exploding due to high blood pressure brought on by angry forum debates...

Jesus man, get a grip and calm down, you seem so desperate to prove to the world that Rossi is actually no good! (never going to happen BTW) Why do you care so much about what people think of Rossi? Not got much going on at the moment or something dawg?

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RawDawg

Joined:

Jan 09

Posts: 960

RawDawg says:

Stoner fanboy?

Oh that's right, anyone that doesn't buy into the Rossi boy gibberish about Stoner "can't develop" when it's pretty plain to see that Ducati didn't break the bank for Stoner is a Stoner fanboy. My post had fuck all to do with "what people think of Rossi". It was about Stoner at Ducati and the obvious lack of fact based post by some of you Rossi boys about "Ducati's" unwillingness to develop the bike which you guys lay at the feet of Stoner. @mocha01 - What is the basis of your "Stoner is clearly a racer that can't articulate or translate what he wants into a technical product". Exactly how many debriefs have you sat in? Who at Ducati has told you this? Where have you read this? From Noyes, Birt, Ryder, Moody, Emmetts, etc? Has Honda complain about the same thing? Where is your evidence? Where is you evidence that "Jorge appears to be a racer with the same inability"?

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wak1309

Joined:

Jun 10

Posts: 120

wak1309 says:

Not ganging up or anything but....

RawDawg "Has Honda complain about the same thing? Where is your evidence? Where is you evidence that "Jorge appears to be a racer with the same inability"?"

I think the results are all the evidence you need? The Hondas at the moment are the fastest bikes in there so Honda don't need to complain yet about not getting feedback from racers cos it's all good for the time being (as clearly demonstrated by Stoner's dominance, Dovi's consistence and when they're there, Pedrosa and Simmo's speed!)

Jorge got a seat on a proven, already developed, winning bike, so we have yet to see if he can carry that on as they (Yamaha) clearly need to now?

That said, I take your point about lack of funding for Stoner on the Ducati and now they are trying to throw everything including the garage sink at getting it back on the podium, we've yet to see if Rossi can develop it as he did the Yamaha. We'll all have to watch this space.......

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Milkybars

Joined:

Feb 11

Posts: 616

Milkybars says:

RawDawg

The only thing we have in common is we both like Ben Spies and Nicky Hayden. You are all over the Motogp website posting about Rossi not a person that can give good feed back to techs., mechs., so they can go make better parts for a bike to become good. You discount him all the time. You were the forst to say Duc was cheating. When Motomatters discounted that, You shifted to then he is breaking the spirit of the rule, Kenny Noyes dad discounted that on his blog on SpeedTV and yet you seem to think you know better than these people. You who have no mechanical, technical, engineering or any skill set to get you a job in any Motogp paddock. You are so opiniated that you discount everything people say with facts they read. Yet you try to rise above those facts and say that you are correct. You need to piss off. 

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Hedgehog5

Joined:

Aug 02

Posts: 2319

Hedgehog5 says:

Mocha01 - "Stoner is clearly a racer that can't articulate or translate what he wants into a technical product, and I think same goes for Dani. Jorge appears to be a racer with the same inability. Going back in time, Ron Haslam was a good developer ... I think that Rossi is a racer\developer."

Stoner's feedback (moaning) to the press on the Ducati has been identical to Rossi's feedback (not moaning), but of course that doesn't mean much... thing is are we talking about Stoner's ability or his team's to turn his feedback into a ridable bike?... Rossi has had Burgess with him since the Honda days for a good reason... as a team I think they can really develop a bike but to say it's all down to Rossi is to undermine the input of other important people in the sport... & of course, as we've seen, budgets start being stretched when Rossi arrives.

Ron Haslam comes from a time when riders had to play a far more active part in setting up a bike... he can still take a superbike & single handedly improve it's handling to about the best you'll get from it.

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RawDawg

Joined:

Jan 09

Posts: 960

RawDawg says:

You are a flat out 100% lie Milkybars

First off let me say my post on this thread have been about STONER and DUCATI adn the so call lack of development. But let's look at your accusations since you want to bring up something else. I have never, ever, ever stated that "Rossi not a person that can give good feed back to techs., mechs., so they can go make better parts for a bike to become good". Never. I've said that Rossi shouldn't be given all the credit for development because he isn't the one reading the data, designing the bikes, or designing and making any parts. So if you are going to say something about me than get it correct. Because stating that I said Rossi can't give good feed back is a lie. Matter of fact, "giving feedback" that everyone talks about for the riders I feel is completely overblown anyway. And yes I felt that Ducati had cheated by breaking the spirit of the rules. And David at Motomatters AGREED that they did broken the spirit rules as well. You don't recall him saying "You may say that this is a violation of the spirit of the rules, - though it is not so much violating it as abducting the spirit of the rules, raping its wife, killing its kids, emptying its bank account and dumping its body in a cess pit". I don't discount "facts" - I'm the one bringing the facts into the discussion were others are just repeating what someone post no matter if it has any truth in it or not. And if you don't like what I post than challenge it and let's discuss it.

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RawDawg

Joined:

Jan 09

Posts: 960

RawDawg says:

You've cement my point wak1309

There hasn't been any complains from Honda about "lack of feedback" and you've provided nothing to say the same about Jorge. If Stoner wasn't given the resources so that Ducati could make actual changes to the bike how can people say he can't develop if he wasn't given a chance? Jorge has just been given the keys to Yamaha full on and there has been nothing yet to suggest he can't "develop" or whatever. So this baseless claims from mocha01 of "Jorge can't develop" are just that - baseless. Does Honda have a better bike? I would say yes. But saying Honda engineers did a better job than Yamaha's is Jorge fault would be wrong. Just as it would be wrong to blame Rossi for Ducati producing a better package for Stoner in 2007 than Yamaha did for him, it would be wrong to blame Jorge for Honda getting it more right then Yamaha so far this year.

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Jedd Nero

Joined:

Aug 08

Posts: 13

Jedd Nero says:

Wow it's getting hot in here!!

RawDawg - I do take your points on board about which riders can and cannot set up a bike and in fairness I too would be interested to learn of Mocha01's source for information. I think it fair to say however that some riders through experience are in a stronger position to put forward hard opinions about the bikes and how they perform and react to conditions. It seems apparent that Ducati have placed a large element of trust in Rossi and his crew to help develop this bike into a contender again, although how long they have remains to be seen!! Hedgehog says that the Honda's have improved but so have the Yamaha's equally. I think that Yamaha are still riding on last years set-ups and designs, 2012 will show whether Yamaha have got what it takes to stay competitive without the knowledge and experience of someone like Rossi in there camp. However, both Jorge and Ben are quite proficient it seems in getting forward there concerns and seem to be getting the job done at the moment. Besides all of this though, the truth is we want closer racing and to see the likes of Stoner, Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Spies, Simoncelli, Dovi and Hayden all going at it each Sunday and not what has been at times a runaway from Stoner or someone else!!

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motogprulez

Joined:

Jun 08

Posts: 96

motogprulez says:

disagree with rossi

he mentions how honda has progressed this yr but i don't think it has, i just think stoner has made it look better. remember pedrosa had a very gd run on it before breaking his collarbone last yr, and if anything dovi has got slower this yr. And simo is better due to learning the bike rather than it improving, he also got good at end of last yr

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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