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Anonymous

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Matthew Birt  says:

Casey Stoner happy to silence Rossi and Burgess criticism

Casey Stoner has said his domination of the 2011 MotoGP world championship was made sweeter after the criticism he faced from Valentino Rossi and Jerry Burgess when he was riding for Ducati. Stoner won 10 races last season to clinch his second MotoGP world title as he delivered Honda’s first premier class world title since 2006. While the 26-year-old was enjoying unrivalled...

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  • Posted 3 years ago (23 December 2011 10:13)

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2vforeva

Joined:

Sep 11

Posts: 23

2vforeva says:

CCB: "The problem both Casey and Rossi both complained about over the CF frameless Ducati was a lack of feel when pushed hard. The cause of this in my humble opinion seems to be the fact that using the engine as the frame made it too rgid. How do you engineer flex into a solid piece of metal like an engine?
Again in my laymans terms a frame is far easier thing to do that with and by adding or removing bracing  So without talking down to me , can use explain what you think they should have done to try resolve the issue ?"


I know you asked Nostro this one CCB, and his answer was something like, no one in the world seems to know the answer in how to fix the Chassisless Ducati. So, short answer, build a bike like everyone else, cause they seem to work.

I am not sure that the problem was as simple as being to rigid. The "feel" at extreme lean angles needed by a bike is mostly provided by the frame flexing not by the suspension as in a car. So just imagine that the Chassisless Ducati has a 300mm long frame/airbox that goes from the steering head to the engine, a conventional chassis from steering head to back of the engine is say 800mm. I think that Ducati have encountered a problem in providing the chassis flex required by the Bridgestone tyres while being ridged enough so as not to deflect easily. I think the most critically problem they've found is the storage and replay of this deflected energy in a reliable spring action. Aka the short frame runs in the chassisless Ducati don't surprise surprise give the same feel as the long frame runs of the Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki. And Ducati seemed incapable of designing a frame structure that could do it with the design they were using.

Frankly it does my head in trying to think of a way fool all known physics into believing you have a object 2x longer than you do! (I know my wife never falls for it ;)

Probably this is why we hear Rossi say that the aluminium and Carbon Chassisless bikes showed no major change in behaviour. Because it is a fundamental design problem that is ONLY found when you get a Motogp rider aboard. More than likely this is why Carlos Checa (ex motogp rider) has said forget the bike, its the tyres. Well said Carlos, but not quite true. Its the bike not working on those tyres in a very narrow band of performance only a few riders can get a bike into.

The whole saga of the chassisless Ducati in motogp is a tale to caution all those who think that design/packaging and computer intensive component finite analysis can make you a bike with out you riding it. And riding it right to the absolute edge needed for your form of competition.

So, 2012, Ducati make a full chassis bike for motogp, if they get their engineering right (or just go steal an M1/RC213V) they will have something competitive. Bloody hope they do!

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revnev7

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Oct 11

Posts: 612

revnev7 says:

BRAVE OR STUPID?

        Just read the skinny version of MCN,a pair of ex World champ`s,giving their view`s on VR`s future.They are both of the opinion, that he has win`s, and maybe another title in him.This is suprising,not what they said,but that they have put it out in the public domain.Reputation`s are on the line.Mind you, the two have said quite a few weird thing`s before.But what the hell,it`s not like when we all say our bit,we lose nothing.,but how are they gonna` look,come season`s end?

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Milkybars

Joined:

Feb 11

Posts: 616

Milkybars says:

Tell Casey to set up a Twitter account

and see if he can surpass Jorge 300,000 followers since 2009, then ask Rossi how he managed to pass Jorge followers in less than 3 months. That's popularity. Please don't take yourself seriously on calling the dour, no life, swearing, angry, shitty pig ass maker popular.

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Milkybars

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Feb 11

Posts: 616

Milkybars says:

They will look same as

all the idiots that put Casey on the highest pedestal at the end of 2007.  Took him a miserable 3 years and riding another Manufacturers bike to get back there. Now I am hearing the same lauding again.

Funny thing now is this idiot says he will quit Motogp because his toys is being taken away. Below in his own asinine words again. I hope he can back it up this time and it's not a repeat of Motegi.

"I think if we kill prototypes then we may as well be racing touring cars," Stoner said. "It's no different to this. It'll definitely take everything out of the racing for me.

"(Prototype racing) is the way it's been for so many years. There have been a few things recently about costs, which have definitely increased, and the amount of personnel needed to run these bikes. They're definitely more complicated than the old 500cc.

"But if it does change, then it's definitely going to be disappointing for me and I don't know if I'd want to be a part of it."

One sentence from me to Casey," Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

[This Reply has been modified by the Author]

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Nostrodamus

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 4518

Nostrodamus says:

Nice synopsis 2Vforeva

I agree. Most fingers seem to be pointing in the direction of the ultra stiff 'stones as the ultimate culprit.

Ducati built the spider extension chassis out of aluminium to try and achieve feel. No change. Now they've tried a full noise aluminium beam frame and what does Rossi say 'No change'. So the CF airbox/headstock member provides exactly the same feedback as an ubiquitious aluminium beam frame.

Where does that leave Ducati? Do they now narrow the angle of their trademark 90 degree vee to provide a more centralised mass and more options to design a new chassis with altered weight distribution as Wosi hopes they have? Or do they tell their rider he needs to move to the mountain and alter his riding style as he himself acknowledged he would have to do more than 12 months ago, but to date has patently failed to do so? Because he won't or can't. Pretty obvious it's the latter. Adapt or die in the dog eat dog world of MotoGP.

I hope Preziosi sticks two fingers up them all and rolls out a redesigned CF 'frameless' 90 degree V4 GP12 update of last years GP11.9.1.

I mean for how long can Rossi lead them on a merry goose chase with no tangible direction to follow? How important is the CF chassisless design to the retail sector and Panigale sales? Wroom will tell us I suppose.
 

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revnev7

Joined:

Oct 11

Posts: 612

revnev7 says:

VERY Selective Memory.

        Motegi......If my memory serve`s me well, { and it does } ,he was not the only one whinging about not going.    A miserable 3 year`s for another title?{ your right he did hav`to go up them bloody step`s a hell of a lot }, to that poxy podium.Something you must dream of.Well keep dreaming boy.       CS is a grown up, Twitter is for children and footballer`s.

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jamieg999

Joined:

Jul 08

Posts: 1538

jamieg999 says:

Good stuff Nostro/2vforeva

When Bridgestone entered MotoGP they were only used by Ducati and all the feedback for development focussed on the D16 (obviously). I can't remember which team was next to use them before Valentino Rossi demanded them for the M1 thus creating two points of feedback for their development. MotoGP then goes to the one tyre rule and they get another 14+ points of feedback from at least four different manufacturers with different designs of bike.

It looks very much to me too that the finger point at the 'Stones because they work fine on Casey's bike and not on Valentino's and they're usually the same spec tyre. The Ducati has become less suited to them perhaps whilst the Honda has adapted after Dani Pedrosa's struggles at the beginning. Casey Stoner is the only constant in the Bridgestone story and he's won on all specs on two different bikes and all their incarnations.

Without being an engineer I'd guess it's much harder to make a GP bike work on a specific tyre than it is to make a tyre that works on a number of bikes. If Ducati narrow the V, move the lump around and still get the same results it will point even more at the tyres but it won't change the fact that only Casey Stoner can use them properly.

p.s anyone read the WSB bike test with Jezza McWilliams in MCN today and not wonder what the RSV4 might do in MotoGP if Aprilia can bend it through the rules?

 

 

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acanada46

Joined:

Aug 11

Posts: 794

acanada46 says:

jamieq999 and nostro

have turned into quite a double act ....i wonder who has got his hand up the other ones arse.....

 

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trailler

Joined:

Jul 09

Posts: 739

trailler says:

Stoner =

some bitter and twist . nevermind , roll on 2012.........

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YamahaGYTR

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Sep 11

Posts: 2284

YamahaGYTR says:

When Bridgestone entered MotoGP they were only used by Ducati

Erm no they weren't Ducati were on Michelins at the start then in 2005 they switched to Bridgestones Suzuki were the first to switch to the Japanese rubber.

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