CCB: "The problem both Casey and Rossi both complained about over the CF frameless Ducati was a lack of feel when pushed hard. The cause of this in my humble opinion seems to be the fact that using the engine as the frame made it too rgid. How do you engineer flex into a solid piece of metal like an engine?
Again in my laymans terms a frame is far easier thing to do that with and by adding or removing bracing So without talking down to me , can use explain what you think they should have done to try resolve the issue ?"
I know you asked Nostro this one CCB, and his answer was something like, no one in the world seems to know the answer in how to fix the Chassisless Ducati. So, short answer, build a bike like everyone else, cause they seem to work.
I am not sure that the problem was as simple as being to rigid. The "feel" at extreme lean angles needed by a bike is mostly provided by the frame flexing not by the suspension as in a car. So just imagine that the Chassisless Ducati has a 300mm long frame/airbox that goes from the steering head to the engine, a conventional chassis from steering head to back of the engine is say 800mm. I think that Ducati have encountered a problem in providing the chassis flex required by the Bridgestone tyres while being ridged enough so as not to deflect easily. I think the most critically problem they've found is the storage and replay of this deflected energy in a reliable spring action. Aka the short frame runs in the chassisless Ducati don't surprise surprise give the same feel as the long frame runs of the Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki. And Ducati seemed incapable of designing a frame structure that could do it with the design they were using.
Frankly it does my head in trying to think of a way fool all known physics into believing you have a object 2x longer than you do! (I know my wife never falls for it ;)
Probably this is why we hear Rossi say that the aluminium and Carbon Chassisless bikes showed no major change in behaviour. Because it is a fundamental design problem that is ONLY found when you get a Motogp rider aboard. More than likely this is why Carlos Checa (ex motogp rider) has said forget the bike, its the tyres. Well said Carlos, but not quite true. Its the bike not working on those tyres in a very narrow band of performance only a few riders can get a bike into.
The whole saga of the chassisless Ducati in motogp is a tale to caution all those who think that design/packaging and computer intensive component finite analysis can make you a bike with out you riding it. And riding it right to the absolute edge needed for your form of competition.
So, 2012, Ducati make a full chassis bike for motogp, if they get their engineering right (or just go steal an M1/RC213V) they will have something competitive. Bloody hope they do!