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Anonymous

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MCN  says:

Poll: What puts UK Fireblade buyers off ABS?

Quick question for you: how many new Fireblades were sold in Germany without ABS last year? Answer: none. Every single one bought was the ABS-equipped model. For Britain, 35% of Blades had ABS, in France it was 20% and in Italy and Spain it was just 5%. Setting aside the racial stereotypes for a moment, let's concentrate on the UK, and...

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  • Posted 3 years ago (17 July 2012 12:04)

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Rogerborg

Joined:

Sep 09

Posts: 860

Rogerborg says:

That's a fully fledged bastard of a good point

The ABS on a Fireblade might be top notch, but when Brussels passes the "Fun Ist Verboten" directive and mandates it on all bikes, you can bet that the systems fitted on the low end will be built strictly to a cost.  If they help at all, it'll be largely accidental.

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supermario

Joined:

Dec 09

Posts: 2490

supermario says:

X2

I have to admit I wasn't aware there were different modes for the ABS on the S10000RR. Whichever mode it was on, it was easily beatable.

Have to say I'm puzzled though by ABS not being allowed in racing if its as good as you say, particularly in prototype racing. Afterall it would be like traction control for the front wheel. Do you have any sources for that I could check out?

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spondonste

Joined:

Aug 02

Posts: 2730

spondonste says:

How dare I have a different point of view!

X2Glider I disagree with you vehemently. No I don't own a bike with ABS but have been involved in development of these systems at MIRA (so have something of an insight to them). Have raced supermoto and speedway (plus also road racing) so also have a bit of an insight in to riding on loose terrain.

ABS systems operate a pressure relief solenoid which sure as hell has a degree of give in the system that braided brake lines and brake pistons/ calipers don't. It also increases the amount of fluid in the system and since brake fluids aren't completely incompressible will affect the effectiveness of the braking system. So catagorically you do not get the same feel as a conventional brake system. FACT

 

If ABS systems are beneficial for use on loose terrains then why aren't they installed on motocross race bikes (go on have a wild stab in the dark, you might begin to understand ABS's limitations!).

 

You seem to agree that there is a risk riders may ride more aggressively with ABS systems or leaving their braking slightly later. Since loss of traction can occur from more than just braking, leaving braking later or riding more aggressively DOES run the risk that more riders could be injured from lateral sliding of wheels for a multitude of reason. The introduction of ABS systems on cars did not lead to a significant decrease in RTA injuries as largely these were transferred to pedestrians/ more vulnerable road users (car occupant injuries did decrease but SIP systems/ airbags had an effect on these). The conclussion from many assessments is that ABS systems on cars have lead to drivers driving closer to the limitations of the vehicle.

ABS systems aren't used in road racing events which have control tyres. Why is this so if the new bosch system can be tailored to to a particular tyre?

 

I am not decreeing that in some applications ABS systems can be a benefit. These systems do have their limitations and merely stating some of them could be considered giving a rounded objective point of view. Obviously those people that have bought whole heartedly in to this technology might try to paint over these limitations or shoot down those who highlight them. History is littered with with people who don't want others to see the full picture or those that demand others should not be allowed to have a different point view from them.

 

 

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snev

Joined:

Jan 11

Posts: 7842

snev says:

amen......

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mattiboy

Joined:

Oct 05

Posts: 71

mattiboy says:

In terms of the potential increased safety factor of ABS, i'm not really that fussed. If I wanted to be totally safe I probably wouldn't be riding a bike. I'm happy to be a hypocrite when it comes to bikes. Some things I like, such as electric start (I wouldn't fancy kick starting a 1200 twin too many times), some things I don't like (ABS & TC). Not sure there is necessarily any particular logic to it. I also deeply dislike red bikes, except ducatis, which I think should only come in red. All down to personal opinion. Some people want as much 'help' as they can get, some want as little 'interference' as they can get.

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X2Glider

Joined:

May 10

Posts: 427

X2Glider says:

Yes, how dare you.

ABS systems operate a pressure relief solenoid which sure as hell has a degree of give in the system that braided brake lines and brake pistons/ calipers don't. It also increases the amount of fluid in the system and since brake fluids aren't completely incompressible will affect the effectiveness of the braking system. So catagorically you do not get the same feel as a conventional brake system. FACT

 

Yes, there is a pressure relief valve in the system.  It's controlled by pilot pressure which is determined by the ECU and throttles according until the program decides to decrease pilot pressure.  It isn't a basic  hydraulic system where pilot pressure is set with a set screw adjustment on a cartridge.  The programming in the ECU sends the signal to a solenoid operated valve which varies pilot pressure.  I know hydraluics well, even as they apply to ABS.

 

Also, the 2 Bosch ABS systems I have had did not add fluid volume (even the one that had a 13 kilo servo system).  They only ever added pressure.  There were zero extra fluid reservoirs to draw from nor were there accumulators to absorb the shock when brake pressure was released.  Even if they wanted to add more fluid, it would only be possible to add a minimal amount and would need a servo motor powerful enough to pack it in.  At this point you risk blowing lines.  That's why the Brembo monoblocs came about.  After it was determined braided lines were not enough, they built a stiffer caliper.  Yes, standard 2piece calipers expand.  Only the Honda Fireblade uses a servo anymore.  All others are servo-less the past 5 years.  Bikes anyway.  I won't speak for cars.

 

If ABS systems are beneficial for use on loose terrains then why aren't they installed on motocross race bikes (go on have a wild stab in the dark, you might begin to understand ABS's limitations!).
 

 

It isn't even remotely desirable on a MX bike or enduro.  You steer with the rear as you brake into a tight turn way too often and when airborn, you need freedom in rear wheel rotation to adjust attitude so you don't go ass over tits or the opposite.  Locking the rear is a necessary technique.  I'm an enduro guy who happens to get airborn on occasion.

 

 

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X2Glider

Joined:

May 10

Posts: 427

X2Glider says:

Just having a healthy discussion.  Don't get too upset.  ;)

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robsalvv

Joined:

Jul 12

Posts: 3

robsalvv says:

And there's this to consider...

Bosch is behind a lot of the positive PR about ABS - guess who has the ABS market cornered?

The all pervasive and common view about ABS is that it will save lives and pro ABS folk who bring carcentric views to motorcycle ABS just can't fathom what the fuss is about, however the fuss is important. There is NO STUDY that shows any statistical benefit from having ABS from a fatality point of view. There are a few staistical studies however that claim some amazing fatality reduction. The most pervasive one at the moment being the IIHS study claiming a 37% reduction in fatalities - it pops up everywhere. The problem is that it is highly flawed and confounded and the more important thing is that you cannont re-interpret MAIDS or the venerable HURT reports to show how ABS would have made a decent impact on fatality causation... so if the two most detailed in depth crash studies can't show a significant benefit (the most generous interpretation of MAIDS showed about 8 - 12% reduction, I think that's on "right to ride" somewhere, but they were really being generous), then how can a simple statistical study do it?

If riders keep making the same decisions, or possibly make risk compensating based decisions because they now have ABS and feel "safer", then the key difference in a post ABS world will be that more riders will crash into objects vertically rather than horizontally. There will be no to little reduction in casualty crashes - how can there be if the decisions are still the same? ABS doesn't influence those decision. It can only hope to influence the possible consequences. Now the "remaining upright" outcome **MIGHT** be a beneficial outcome, so THAT is worth talking about.

I wouldn't be surprised though if the "fail to negotiate bend" type crashes go up a little since ABS can complicate braking dynamics in a corner, unless it's a sophisticated ABS package.

So this discussion is not a simple one. Anyone who takes a simple all encompassing position is not being intellectually robust and is taking a stance that's based more on a matter of faith than fact... and the EU is buying right into the faith based perception and the flawed statistical conclusions.

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X2Glider

Joined:

May 10

Posts: 427

X2Glider says:

I agree

on all points about there being zero studies proving that ABS has ever saved a life.  I also agree that the EU is pushing compulsory ABS without understanding motorcycle dynamics and how huge of a difference there is from a car.  Very blind decision on their part.  Do I agree that there can be excessive faith in ABS and more crashes can happen because a rider fails to understand the system's abilities.  Yes.  But like the lack of studies showing a life savings, there's an equal amount of studies that can't prove ABS kills.

 

I have yet to buy an ABS equipped 4 wheel vehicle because of my tire choices.  Totally makes ABS less effective.  Grippier tires means ABS kicks in quicker and then the braking distances are longer.  Selectable modes for different tires would be necessary to be a positive benefit.

 

Same with a bike.  On a modeless bike, putting the stickiest tires on and swapping to the best racing brake pads only makes the ABS kick in quicker and braking distances longer.  Having modes to account for these items brings everything into check.  Only a handful of bikes do this well.  1198S, Diavel, Panigale, S1000RR and ZX-10R.  Due to cost, other models are lagging behind in OEM spec.

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Ride4Fun

Joined:

Apr 05

Posts: 634

Ride4Fun says:

SHIVA

That's why you ride a BMW.  :-D

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