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Anonymous

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Matthew Birt  says:

Casey Stoner memories: Chris Richardson

In the third part of MCN’s exclusive series of Stoner memories, Stoner’s former LCR mechanic Chris Richardson recalls his first encounter with the supremely talented Aussie. “My first year with Lucio (Cecchinello) was in 2002 and they just said this Australian guy was going to be doing his first year in Grand Prix with the team. But I’d not really heard of...

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  • Posted 2 years ago (20 December 2012 15:00)

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wosihound

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wosihound says:

Baa..

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Bultoboy

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Bultoboy says:

Ah Come on Wosi

Give up with this 2007 huge advantage angle

Pedrosa also finished above Rossi in 2007 and he was on Michelins. So what's the excuse for Rossi finishing behind Pedrosa?

Based on the form book there should have been 2 riders in with a chance of the 2007 title - Capirossi and Rossi - maybe Hayden as he was reigning champion after all.

But Capirossi was unable to use the "huge advantage" the GP7 offered and went from 2006 title challenger to absolutely nowhere. Ditto Hayden.

There were only ever 3 in it, Rossi, Pedrosa and Stoner. The rest were bit part p[layers, those three won every race between them apart from 2 wet races, so what does it prove that 5 of the top 7 had Bridgestones. Only one made use of them and won, Michelins were 2nd and 3rd, the rest were nowhere. 5 of the bottom 7 also had Bridgestones - what does that prove?

Stoner won that title fair and square, just as Rossi won 2008 - to me, his best win of them all.

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wosihound

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wosihound says:

Think..

Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that Stoner won 10 races and the title as a virtual rookie 2007, and was unable to back it up if there was no advantage lost?

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

tyre advantages

How do you know that bridgestone had a tyre advantage wosi? An explanation which fits observed reality just as well is that michelin, or the michelin runners on saturday night specials anyway, just no longer had the apparently substantial advantage they had enjoyed  for quite a few years.

Surely you have read your boy's own statements regarding the ducati, along with those of many others with real-life experience of the bike. What stoner did on that bike was exceptional and unique, and could not be replicated by other riders. I have not heard rossi, burgess or anyone else say that this only applied to the 2010 ducati, or exclude the 2007 ducati from their statements. If you look at what rossi said from the very start, independent of the chassis or lack thereof, weight distribution and everything else, he never liked the engine characteristics of the 800 ducati, particularly the power delivery, and directly said the engine had been developed for ultimate power at the expense of the rideability of the overall package; he wasn't even speaking of the full-on screamer btw, but rather the dumbed down bigbang engine which had replaced it in the supposed interest of rideability for riders not named casey stoner.

 It has always seemed likely to me that the engine which gave the ducati in stoner's hands its only advantage, that of straight-line performance, also made a significant contribution to the thing being unrideable for others.  

(EDIT Rossi upped his game in 2008 and rode the best he ever did, imo. If you want to get into discussion of advantages and their loss it has been argued elsewhere with some credibility imo that as well as rossi getting the same bridgestones that stoner had in 2008 they took away the high tech multicompound tyre stoner had on the 2007 ducati with which it had been co-developed, as a precursor to the control tyre in 2009. Ducati also returned to type and stuffed up the 2008 ducati initially, they had to return to the 2007 engine after problems early season including a mechanical dnf due to engine failure if you recall, and it wouldn't turn at all at some of the tight european tracks, as opposed to turning ponderously previously. In any case again as with the tyre argument it is quite possible  that the yamaha on the bridgestones in 2008 merely returned to the usual situation of having a huge advantage over ducati as opposed to a merely massive advantage in 2007. Ask marco melandri.)

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wosihound

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wosihound says:

.

Assuming you're right and if what Casey did on the bike 2007 was exceptional and unique..how is it he couldn't back his title up over the next three years?

I mean..the bike he left Rossi was competive, right?..and this is Casey Stoner we're talking about?

If there was NO advantage lost 2007, why didn't he win another title with Ducati?

..and what about Suzuki?

Seriously..I'm all ears.

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MandyRamola

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MandyRamola says:

Can we change the subject for the moment

I've got the chance to buy a 1988 CBR 600 for cheap. My first thought is to spend the money I'd have spent on something else (about 7 grand) and throw a fair portion at the CBR. 85 ponies and 200kg are the issues. I've thought about keeping the bike looking original at first but kitting it out with modern running gear, a diet and 100+BHP. Why? Coz why not and I can and also, do you reckon I could shed 30 kilos without it cost 10k? Discuss.

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MandyRamola

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MandyRamola says:

And Wosi

Advantage lost presumes a one way scale, the other teams already had the handling closer to sorted they just didn't have the legs on the Duke. Conveniently this happened at the first few rounds at tracks with monster straights which helped the bike get to bits where it's handling wasn't the best and highlighted just how fast it was in a straightline, something the Ducati has never had a problem proving with anyone from Capirossi to Rossi onboard. This "advantage", I'd call it a natural trait, was steadily reeled in by Honda & Yamaha and it's ebbed backwards and forwards ever since until Microbots 217.whatever on the RCV. The other advantage was Casey Stoner. It wasn't until HRC could add this ingredient to their bike that they " could do a Ducati". That is all that happened. Tyres smyres, a good Bridgestone front tailored more for a Ducati was offset by an extra special Michelin set freshly baked that morning by Pierre at the Boulangerie.

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

not backing up on ducati

I edited my previous reply after your further post, but the ducati could  have been crap in 2007 and then relatively crappier still in subsequent years. This certainly fits observed events and in particular marco melandri's experiences on the bike, including realising from his first few laps on that wonderful 2007 ducati in the post-season test that he was in deep trouble. He struggled to get the thing within 2 seconds of stoner during that test, and this situation persisted with the 2008 bike. Nicky hayden's reaction to his first few laps on the the 2008 bike in the post-season test that year was "I don't know what they are paying casey, but it's not enough". Rossi's experience in the 2010 post-season test would seem to have been broadly similar.

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wosihound

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wosihound says:

.

It's clear to old wosi now, that Casey was a special talent on the Ducat - especially the steel trellis D16 07-08 - but the bike was a weapon then by comparison.

Capirossi had better podium results than Hopkins in 4th and should have finished above him but had 4DNF. He'd just become a Dad, the Taxman was all over him and he had a precocious young team mate applying pressure unexpectedly. His head was a shed and he lost focus.

Barros had a few decent results interspersed with too many DNF.

Hayden did pretty good 2010 but reletively speaking has been nowhere the last two years. He reckons the ALU beam frame is the best Ducati he's ridden.

This gives us a clue just how far the Jap bikes have progressed, gapping Ducati.

They had Stoner, they had Rossi..The engineering department couldn't keep either of them happy.

 

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

2007 ducati

I mainly do this for the fun of arguing, as I suspect do you wosi, but my post on the other thread is close to my real view ie that rossi/lorenzo/stoner is like federer/nadal/djokovic, with perhaps a murray/pedrosa analogy to come although at this stage murray has broken through whilst pedrosa has not.

As I have said before the 2007 was an invincible weapon if you could ride it like stoner, and I agree relatively better than subsequent ducatis. Stoner is not a 1 or 2 second a lap faster rider than all of his peers on any bike as his honda experience demonstrates, and the yamaha may not have suited him if he had ever got on one, but the times show he was mostly 1 to 2 seconds a lap faster on a ducati, due it would seem to a unique synergy he had with the thing, which doesn't mean it was easy for him even in 2007. I don't think any of the current riders could have done what he did on the 2007 ducati, including rossi, it is just the one bike that doesn't suit him imo, including the characteristics of the engine which gave stoner his edge.
I have often wondered how john hopkins might have gone on that bike, the bridgestones obviously suited him for a start and his riding style  just possibly could also have melded with the bike.

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