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Anonymous

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Matthew Birt  says:

Nicky Hayden reflects on Rossi and Ducati spell

Nicky Hayden spent most of his press briefing at Ducati’s 2013 MotoGP launch in Italy this morning looking forward to what he hopes is a brighter future after a tough campaign last year. But inevitably the American was asked to reflect on Valentino Rossi’s nightmare two-year spell at Ducati that ended with the Italian icon scoring just three podium finishes in...

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  • Posted 2 years ago (15 January 2013 14:51)

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Nostrodamus

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 5118

Nostrodamus says:

Buelli

Someone hit the dimmer switch on your little yellow five watt light bulb long ago. So you saying Furusawa has an axe to grind with Rossi?

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wosihound

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Jul 12

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wosihound says:

So..Nostro once more fails

..to bring anything to the table other than hot air.

There was NO improvement in the bikes from 2010 to 2011 and Casey on the Ducati in 2010 was just as fast as he was a year later on the Honda.

Stoner won 7 more races and the title 2011 on the RCV but was NO faster than while he was finishing 4th on the Ducati with 3 wins..at the end of the year.

This is exactly the kind of blind fanboy poppycock we have to put up with from the font of self elected knowledge and yet again it's.. look for yourself. No evidence.

Any fkin idiot can deduce that Stoner was MUCH faster on the honda 2011 than he was 2010 on the Duke. It's not rocket science is it?

But the senile old Kiwi maintains his bullshit is right.

I've just had a quick look and written down a few of the DRY race times from both years.

Bear in mind, Stoner won most of these races 2011 but was barely on the podium 2010 on the Duc as the times compare the winners time/gap. Stoner was even further behind or in the gravel.

QAT: 12 secs faster 2011

LEMAN: +26

ESTORIL: +26

CAT: +4

MUG: +38

LAG: +2

I really can't be arsed to do a proper analysis but, believe me or check yourself, ALL DRY races were faster 2011.

There were 7 new lap records 2011. There were 4 works Honda's which quite obviously to anyone with the slightest common sense, were faster than the 2010 Ducati with Stoner on it.

Rossi 2011 was faster than Stoner 2010..and the tyres weren't as good either.

Nostro..you're a tool.

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Nostrodamus

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Nostrodamus says:

Stoner 2010 / 2011 D16 / RCV vs Rossi D16 2011

 Yet again for your edification Wosi. These are the only comparable condition races for which data is extractable between Stoner and Rossi.

Catalunya - Hey ho, Rossi was 1 whole second quicker than Stoner on total elapsed race time at one of his favourite tracks. Oh, Stoner ran off track twice.

Mugello - Rossi 38 seconds faster than Stoner 2010 !! Oh Lorenzo 42 faster than himself 2010. A freshly resurfaced track perhaps?

Brno- Rossi 5 seconds faster than Pramac Stoner over total elapsed time. Brno 2011 was the first race in which Bridgestone brought a wider selection of tyre compounds for the riders to choose from.

Misano. Rossi 4 secs faster than Pramac Stoner. Control Lorenzo 12 whole seconds faster 2011 than himself 2010. Reason? Bridgestone brings asymmetrics tyres 2011.

Laguna - since you love Laguna '08 so much. It's time to update and talk Laguna 2011. Truly similar conditions 2010 - 2011. GP10 Stoner 24 secs faster than GP11.9 Rossi. 24 Seconds faster on the Pramac machine in weather, ambient and track conditions that were similar. Control Lorenzo 2011 ran exactly the same elapsed time as Pramac Stoner 2010, or actually 3 seconds slower than himself 2010.

Sachenring. O.K shortened race 2010. Stoner only 1 sec behind the winner after 9 laps. Extrapolate that to a full 30 laps and that's 4 seconds in arrears. Rossi 26 seconds behind Stoner 2011. Fastest race laps Control Lorenzo 1:22.28 2010 and 1:22.02 2011. Pramac Stoner 1:22.53. GP11.9 Rossi 1:22.80

Aragon. Stoner only 1 sec different between his total elapsed race times on the Pramac and the RCV. It's a rocket that RCV. Rossi 40 seconds slower than Stoners Pramac! Control Lorenzo 5 secs slower 2011 than his 2010.

So the best you've got is 5 secs due to a wider rubber selection, and I bring a 40 sec and 24 sec whooping of Rossi by Stoner. Not to mention 9 podiums and 3 wins for Pramac Stoner, versus Rossi's one inherited podium 2011. Christ even Xaus did better than that on the Ducati!

Control riders Lorenzo and Hayden did pretty much what they did 2010 to 2011. The difference each time was Stoner.

If you're going to bring figures to the table Wosi they better be like for like, otherwise they're less than meaningless. But of course meaningless figures are your stock in trade.

 

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wosihound

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wosihound says:

That's better..

Bit closer than embarrassingly slow and he can't ride the Ducati isn't it?

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pannyderosa

Joined:

Jan 13

Posts: 184

pannyderosa says:

Please stop

Come on guys this is meant to be about Hayden's time with Rossi at Ducati.
Why are you squabbling over Stoner and Rossi?
Is it so important that you prove each other wrong?
Stoner's career is over now.Brilliant rider that won 2 world championships on 2 different makes of bike.
Rossi's career is still going.Brilliant rider that won 9 championships on more than 2 makes of bikes.
Some like Stoner.Many more like Rossi.
Nothing will change any of that so stop trying to out do each other while boring others.

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Nostrodamus

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 5118

Nostrodamus says:

Well if mediocrity

the third and fourth rows, dicing with the satellite's and CRT's does it for you Wosi, then who am I to judge. At least he flogs tee shirts eh.

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

qatar 2009

I did not and would not count stoner's fastest lap at qatar in 2010 since he crashed ( on a bike which had become unstable due to ducati following a development direction away from him to make the bike more "generally rideable"), hence my referring to 2009 when both his fastest lap and finishing time were faster than rossi's in winning the 2010 race on the bike which won the championship that year, or in finishing 7th in 2011. The comparison most likely to be even, the 2010 post season test which was only 2 days after the race and which had the internal control of stoner's perfromance on the honda in testing vs pedorsa's in the race also tells a story which you have never addressed.There are also many statements by many people who have ridden/been involved with the ducati including rossi himself that stoner did something unique to make the thing go so fast which it is basically impossible for others to replicate.

Without necessarily any implications for their overall quality as riders ( rossi obviously has to be rated well ahead of stoner overall), stoner is patentlly better at riding the deeply flawed ducati 800 bike, and deserves praise rather than all the condemnation he received for his perfomances on the thing. He was able to extract something because of unique elements in his riding style, as somebody said quite possibly at significant cost to himself, I don't think even he enjoyed riding the thing.   

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

qatar 2009

Wosi I deliberately referred to Qatar 2009 precisely because Stoner crashed in 2010 (on a bike which had become unstable after ducati had made a decision to develop the bike away from him in search of "more general rideability), although you were selectively referring to rossi's fastest lap times rather than his race times for your own purposes. Both Stoner's fastest lap and finishing time in 2009 were faster than rossi's in winning the 2010 race on the bike which won the championship that year, or when he finished 7th in 2011. The comparison most likely to be even, the 2010 post season test which was only 2 days after the race and which had the internal control of stoner's performance on the honda in testing vs pedrosa's in the race also tells a story which you have never addressed.There are also statements by many people who have ridden/been involved with the ducati including rossi himself that stoner did something unique to make the thing go so fast which it is basically impossible for others to replicate.

Without necessarily any implications for their overall quality as riders (rossi obviously has to be rated well ahead of stoner overall), stoner was patently better at riding the deeply flawed ducati 800 bike, and deserves praise rather than all the condemnation he received for his performances on and "lack of development" of the thing, which as you correctly say is the reason for current criticism by some of rossi, tedious though that has become. Stoner it would seem was able to extract something because of unique elements in his riding style, as somebody said quite possibly at significant cost to himself, I don't think even he enjoyed riding the thing.

On the other hand, if you were to design a bike to be peculiarly unsuited to valentino, the ducati would meet every criterion. When not in a slanging match I would concede this makes the design of the bike deeply flawed rather than proving any deficiency in valentino. Even so, I don't see how stoner can be blamed for anything to do with the ducati, other than that by his ability to ride around the flaws of the bike he made everyone including ducati corse, general ducati management, ducati's sponsors, and even jb and valentino think the bike was much better than it actually was. 

I am not even sure about the whole tyre narrative, stoner never complained about the tyres while he was at ducati and has not really done so (concerning the time he was at ducati) subsequently. It would seem reasonable to assume that the tyre he had in 2007, with which the bike was co-developed, suited the bike in the same way that the sns tires were purpose made to suit the bike and the prevailing conditions. Other than the 2 races post laguna seca in 2008,where other explanations could possibly apply ( and in fact were applied) the bike was not unstable/prone to letting go without warning prior to being revamped for 2010, and stoner  at the time anyway said that the 2009 bike was fine and the problem in that year was with him, specifically his health, with which observed events would seem consistent.

So the bottom line for me is that rossi deserves all praise for his glittering career which is not diminished by 2 years on that pig of a bike, you have a good case for blaming ducati all you like, but disparaging what stoner did on the thing is unreasonable imo, particularly since such disparagement preceded and largely provoked the current admittedly unjustifiable criticism of rossi, as you yourself say.  

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Nostrodamus

Joined:

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Posts: 5118

Nostrodamus says:

Wow Doohanfan

You've travelled in a big old circle there. Stating the 2009 D16 was fine (agreed, health was Stoner's biggest hindrance that year), to the 2010 bike (barely changed from the year before, except tyres)saying you're not sure about the tyre narrative that year (are you really not sure?), to calling it a pig of a bike during the Rossi years? Rossi started on the Pramac, a machine little changed from 2009's model which you've described as fine. So for the Duke to become this supposed pig, then that can only be attributed to Rossi's development direction to follow your logic.

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doohanfan

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Jan 12

Posts: 1565

doohanfan says:

nostradamus

My views on all this are well thought through which does not of course  make them correct, but I think my chronology is correct. The 2009 bike was the first carbon fibre bike which stoner did think was an improvement on the trellis frame thing, and on which he had no race dnfs (he obviously did dns a few times), and I don't believe the last race sighting lap crash was the fault of the bike's chassis. He won the qatar race well, and had very competitive pace subsequent to that but faded late in races when his physical endurance gave out, and obviously had rather competitive pace on his return from his illness.

I agree with you on many points, my view is that stoner rode the ducati in the only way it could be ridden fast, and that the line of development prior to the 2010 bike was the only way for the bike to remain fast with the engine configuration and chassis (or no chassis) design, whether or not the design was in itself flawed and unsuited to other riders. I just don't believe that rossi not being able to ride the strange beast negates his success on other bikes.

The 2010 bike was the one developed largely in stoner's absence after the marlboro man started making psychiatric diagnoses on him and they decided to make the bike "more rideable" ( I assume code for more suited to jorge lorenzo or valentino, wrong though they got it). They changed from the screamer to a big bang engine for a start, and iirc sought to alter the front-rear balance of the bike; whatever they did made the bike inherently unstable even for stoner whilst remaining slow for everyone else. Stoner himself started riding conservatively after early season dnfs, the time when he was said to be "not pushing hard enough", which may have had some impact on the times wosihound seeks to compare.

It was not of course the early season bike that he handed over to rossi, they went back to the 2009 forks for one thing, and nor was he exactly slow when riding less conservatively late in the season. I still think the 2010 bike like its 2011 successor was a pig prone to random front end loses though, I just don't think stoner was responsible for it being so, and nor were the problems remediable as I  predicted on another forum.      

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