Motorcycle Forums

qatar 2009

Wosi I deliberately referred to Qatar 2009 precisely because Stoner crashed in 2010 (on a bike which had become unstable after ducati had made a decision to develop the bike away from him in search of "more general rideability), although you were selectively referring to rossi's fastest lap times rather than his race times for your own purposes. Both Stoner's fastest lap and finishing time in 2009 were faster than rossi's in winning the 2010 race on the bike which won the championship that year, or when he finished 7th in 2011. The comparison most likely to be even, the 2010 post season test which was only 2 days after the race and which had the internal control of stoner's performance on the honda in testing vs pedrosa's in the race also tells a story which you have never addressed.There are also statements by many people who have ridden/been involved with the ducati including rossi himself that stoner did something unique to make the thing go so fast which it is basically impossible for others to replicate.

Without necessarily any implications for their overall quality as riders (rossi obviously has to be rated well ahead of stoner overall), stoner was patently better at riding the deeply flawed ducati 800 bike, and deserves praise rather than all the condemnation he received for his performances on and "lack of development" of the thing, which as you correctly say is the reason for current criticism by some of rossi, tedious though that has become. Stoner it would seem was able to extract something because of unique elements in his riding style, as somebody said quite possibly at significant cost to himself, I don't think even he enjoyed riding the thing.

On the other hand, if you were to design a bike to be peculiarly unsuited to valentino, the ducati would meet every criterion. When not in a slanging match I would concede this makes the design of the bike deeply flawed rather than proving any deficiency in valentino. Even so, I don't see how stoner can be blamed for anything to do with the ducati, other than that by his ability to ride around the flaws of the bike he made everyone including ducati corse, general ducati management, ducati's sponsors, and even jb and valentino think the bike was much better than it actually was. 

I am not even sure about the whole tyre narrative, stoner never complained about the tyres while he was at ducati and has not really done so (concerning the time he was at ducati) subsequently. It would seem reasonable to assume that the tyre he had in 2007, with which the bike was co-developed, suited the bike in the same way that the sns tires were purpose made to suit the bike and the prevailing conditions. Other than the 2 races post laguna seca in 2008,where other explanations could possibly apply ( and in fact were applied) the bike was not unstable/prone to letting go without warning prior to being revamped for 2010, and stoner  at the time anyway said that the 2009 bike was fine and the problem in that year was with him, specifically his health, with which observed events would seem consistent.

So the bottom line for me is that rossi deserves all praise for his glittering career which is not diminished by 2 years on that pig of a bike, you have a good case for blaming ducati all you like, but disparaging what stoner did on the thing is unreasonable imo, particularly since such disparagement preceded and largely provoked the current admittedly unjustifiable criticism of rossi, as you yourself say.  

nostradamus

My views on all this are well thought through which does not of course  make them correct, but I think my chronology is correct. The 2009 bike was the first carbon fibre bike which stoner did think was an improvement on the trellis frame thing, and on which he had no race dnfs (he obviously did dns a few times), and I don't believe the last race sighting lap crash was the fault of the bike's chassis. He won the qatar race well, and had very competitive pace subsequent to that but faded late in races when his physical endurance gave out, and obviously had rather competitive pace on his return from his illness.

I agree with you on many points, my view is that stoner rode the ducati in the only way it could be ridden fast, and that the line of development prior to the 2010 bike was the only way for the bike to remain fast with the engine configuration and chassis (or no chassis) design, whether or not the design was in itself flawed and unsuited to other riders. I just don't believe that rossi not being able to ride the strange beast negates his success on other bikes.

The 2010 bike was the one developed largely in stoner's absence after the marlboro man started making psychiatric diagnoses on him and they decided to make the bike "more rideable" ( I assume code for more suited to jorge lorenzo or valentino, wrong though they got it). They changed from the screamer to a big bang engine for a start, and iirc sought to alter the front-rear balance of the bike; whatever they did made the bike inherently unstable even for stoner whilst remaining slow for everyone else. Stoner himself started riding conservatively after early season dnfs, the time when he was said to be "not pushing hard enough", which may have had some impact on the times wosihound seeks to compare.

It was not of course the early season bike that he handed over to rossi, they went back to the 2009 forks for one thing, and nor was he exactly slow when riding less conservatively late in the season. I still think the 2010 bike like its 2011 successor was a pig prone to random front end loses though, I just don't think stoner was responsible for it being so, and nor were the problems remediable as I  predicted on another forum.      

More shite..

I reckon Nostro should stick to slagging Rossi off.

His technical understanding of how these bikes work and the lap time is influenced, leaves an awful lot to be desired.

Rossi started on the Pramac, a machine little changed from 2009's model..barely changed from the year before, except tyres

It's a complete joke..Stop right now Pal, before any credibility you had completely disappears.

2010 saw the 6 engine rule introduced. Ducati completely re-designed all the engine internals to cope with endurance and gave the motor a big bang firing order. The cooling system was overhauled as was the new tail mounted exhaust.

The screamer engine that had given Ducati a huge speed advantage and was largely responsible for Stoners title was gone in the quest to gain reliability.

The bike was re-designed throughout.

It was slimmer and more aerodynamic with completely new winglet fairing. The chassis was refined for better traction, and to elminate the bike’s tendency to squat during hard acceleration. To achieve these goals, Ducati redesigned the entire rear-half of the Desmosedici to be more rigid and rideable.

It started the year with completely new forks from Ohlins.

They even put bark-busters on it to make it more crash resistant..It didn't work.

Hahaha..

You thought about selling that old two-valve wreck and following V8's Nostro?

There's few more Jihadi

assasinators on MCN than our old shi'ite spewer Wosi. As a man who thinks the headstock of the old piped framed D16's could flex up to 50mm (because our couch potato observer Wosi read it once on the web somewhere) I really don't think you're in a position to lecture on the technical aspect of the sport. I think you must have been confusing Ducati's pipes with those dodgy drains you lay (in?).

2010 tyres

Sure nostrodamus, your explanation is the accepted one now and may well be correct, but I don't recall it being raised until rossi starting having random crashes when he got on the bike in 2011.
 
Stoner in my memory did not attribute anything to the tyres when he was actually on the thing in 2010, and just said the thing gave way for no apparent reason  and not related to him pushing hard, to howls of derision from the peanut gallery concerning his competence as a rider and the general quality of his character. I am not sure how much the bridgestone tyre changed between 2009 and 2010 though; he obviously didn't have the  tyre on which he won the championship in 2007 when the control tyre was introduced in 2009, and I suspect didn't have it in 2008 either. I hasten to add I disagreed with this, I still don't see why he and ducati couldn't keep the tyre that bridgestone and ducati had developed over years when everyone wanted to be on michelins.

You and wosi both undoubtedly know more about the technical aspects of gp racing than I do, but my recollection is that they made major geometry changes to the bike which may have affected how the front tyre warmed up as well as stoner's rear wheel steering thing and controlled crash in every corner thing, whilst going big bang may also have altered the character of the bike.He also seemed to give up on his sighting lap blast to warm up the tyres thing after the incident in the last race of 2009.

They actually did come up with a bike which could be ridden conservatively to 4th or 5th and the odd podium by nicky hayden without threatening the front-runners. When they went back to the old front forks and stoner went back to his old riding method, several wins resulted mixed with early race dnfs, which still makes the bike flawed in my view, being forced to gamble on not crashing  in every race while getting the tyres warm not being the recipe for championships.

This is entirely my opinion with no evidence, but I think stoner was also exceedingly pissed off with the attitude of senior ducati management and the marlboro man to his illness in 2009 and was decided on going to honda fairly early in the season, and despite the view of some being quite principled didn't push too hard for the bike to go in a direction which only suited him and not ducati's riders going forward. He certainly agreed publically anyway to the change to the big bang firing order.