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General Britain - EU in or out? Pub Talk - over 18s only

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Perki6

Joined:

Aug 10

Posts: 124

Perki6 says:

Britain - EU in or out?

I know it not got much to do with bikes, except for some of there laws on future modification on Bikes being illegal. And probably others i cant think of.

So what do want Britain in or out of the EU ? 

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  • Posted 2 years ago (15 January 2013 16:14)

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stevebaldy

Joined:

Aug 07

Posts: 6101

stevebaldy says:

it would seem the Yanks

are leaning on Dave to keep EU harmony....Concentrate on your own sh*t I say...:mellow:

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Mankind

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 1371

Mankind says:

even

if  Obama offered to pay the £50,000,000 per DAY it directly costs us to be in the EU, I still don't feel it would be worth the agro, the loss of fishing rights, and law making etc.

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stevebaldy

Joined:

Aug 07

Posts: 6101

stevebaldy says:

mankind....

they couldn't anyway, there more feckin broke than we are !! 

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Mankind

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 1371

Mankind says:

True

But they can print the world's reserve currency, for now.


And little details like that, doesn't usually stop 'em.

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Perki6

Joined:

Aug 10

Posts: 124

Perki6 says:

,

Yanks only wants Britain in the EU so USA have a voice in the EU through Britain. EU dont have to listen to the US but Britain does have a say ( very little say) that the way i see it

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old(ish)git

Joined:

Apr 08

Posts: 9643

old(ish)git says:

why don't we....

..ask the Chinese Government what they'd like to see happen in Europe?:biggrin:

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philehidiot

Joined:

Feb 09

Posts: 4741

philehidiot says:

In terms

of business the Chinese care not if we're in or out of the EU. They'll trade with us regardless. In fact a prominent Chinese businessman said how surprised he is that we aren't using our history with Hong Kong more to our advantage as it provides a perfect base for business between the two countries given all the groundwork for interoperability between the two different legal systems, etc is already laid down and setting up in HK is probably easier than setting up in France. But no, we focus on the EU rather than where the growth is.

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goldenboyfz1

Joined:

Dec 07

Posts: 1112

goldenboyfz1 says:

Out !!!

I'm totally with Ukip on this.... Save the money and plough into public services here... We can still trade with them..... And we won't be subject to all their draconian laws.... Like having to accept immigrants from every part of the EU.... I hear Hungary is next..... !!...

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ANichol

Joined:

Aug 02

Posts: 990

ANichol says:

The politics side

I'm not going to pretend to understand macro economics enough to really debate on whether membership with its fees is better or worse than non-membership and a negotiated trade with the EU (though I am far from convinced by Nigel Farage's basic argument that the UK can trade with commonwealth countries to the same economic success); because if I do, Mankind will send me for an early bath.

The politics side though...I will simply present my POV for what its worth (having dropped the ever-neutral stance I have to take as a politics teacher).

Most people's problem with the EU is something called democratic deficit - this is when there is a part of the system in a democracy where there is no accountability to the public. The EU has it, the House of Lords has it. For both entities it is entirely possible to make a case that the lack of accountability/democracy is better - democracy and good are not the same thing regardless of western rhetoric on such things.

The core of that argument is that there are various forums for the airing of public opinion - any elected chamber such as our House of Commons - where public dissent results in a change of membership to that forum. There can therefore be other forums where public whim is sidelined in an effort to do what is right over what ios popular, or to balance the needs of a minority over the desires of a majority.

The 'better' argument will always revolve around what an undemocratic chamber has done recently and the opinion of the public on such a topic. You will often find public hypocrisy here - perfectly happy when the chamber does something they like, screaming about abuses of power when the chamber does something they do not like.

And herein lies the core of my argument - people complain about democratic deficit, but democracy is a) a myth and b) a stupid idea.

The myth:

An individual person has a set of beliefs. A people do not - they are simultaneously in favour and against everything. You could solve this by majority rules; but remeber that in gang rape, 9 out of 10 are quite happy (doesn't make it right).

The Stupid idea:

In a democracy, any two idiots can outvote a genius. So you need a state with more geniuses than idiots. Let me know if you ever find such a place.

A simple analogy shows the problem. If you went to hospital would you take a show of hands from all the people in the waiting room about whether to take the prescribed treatment?

Yet, we use such a process for deciding health policy, and education policy, and defence, justice, taxation, welfare, business and economic issues....

So, what's better than democracy? A republic with an elected chamber to oversee government competance (but not actually make policy).

My simple comment on economics:

The problem with the EU is the wealth disparity between nations matched to free roaming which results in influx to wealthier places. Solution - federalise the EU. Every person stops paying a national income tax (at all) and pays an EU income tax. This is used to pay for welfare in any member state. Each member state can then use sales taxes to provide top-up funding to cover the disparities in cost of products, etc. For welfare, you only get the EU amount unless your state wants to top it up - and they only have to do so for formally registered residents of the state.

Ergo, a removal of the economic incentive to travel from point A to point B for more welfare. Improved wages in point B would be offset by higher costs of living.

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AlbertHerring

Joined:

Nov 09

Posts: 317

Hungarians

have had standard EU treaty free movement rights since the day the country acceded to the EU, 1 May 2004. That's why your street now reeks of goulash and your local Wetherspoons sells nothing but Tokay and plum brandy. Not.

(Interestingly, stats show that the people who dislike the EU the most - not just here, all over Europe - are also the ones who know least about it...)

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