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Reynard

Joined:

Oct 10

Posts: 160

Reynard says:

Schools,

why is that once again there are over 4000 schools closed.? Took a 3 mile drive through untreated narrow country roads covered in snow and ice into the local town, and guess what?, all the shops are open. So why not the schools? Do school staff reside in some parallel universe to the rest of us, or is just another excuse to have a 'jolly' at everyones expense?..

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  • Posted 2 years ago (21 January 2013 12:51)

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ANichol

Joined:

Aug 02

Posts: 980

ANichol says:

Spondon....

I didn't say failure was never the teacher's fault. No one is saying that. Useless teachers need to be prevented from doing harm through bad practice, poor subject knowledge, or neglectful classroom management.

Cushier number than other part of employment? Perhaps, but not if you consider like-for-like. To be a teacher, you need good qualifications yourself, a degree, and a postgraduate qualification. You then need to prove your abilities time and time again through continuous performance management from line managers. If you were to pass through all these hoops in most private sector equivalents, you'd be laughing all the way to the bank. Instead, you're in a meeting becuase the kid with a 30% attendnace rate didn't pass the exam.

Part of the argument on here is caused by there being no measurable for education. Tax money goes to teachers to provide an educational experience for children; it does not go to provide them with a set of qualifications regardless of their effort (or lack thereof) or talent, or attitude, etc. Yet, pass rates are all important now.

To torture a metaphor, lets turn schools into supermarkets. A supermarket exists to facilitiate people in the consumption of products they require. It does not exist to ensure that such consumption is performed regardles sof the ability or willingness of the customer to pay.

If a kid makes it through 10 years of school and still cannot read or write - can you claim all ten years of teachers have individually failed that student, or is this starting to look in part like their fault?

Perhaps there is a generational issue here. Those whose school days were teachers yelling and caning and no help for you if you simply didnt' understand. That was bad. Now its too far the other way - teachers essentially having to beg kids to do the bare minimum just so the teacdher doesn't look bad.

Your argument that soldiers are paid badly is surely an argument for improving the pay of soldiers, not for reducing everyoneelse's pay to similar poor levels? With more pay, I would spend more in my local economy, but apparently that is only a good thing when millionaire investors do it (according to current conservative economic arguments).

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SlowLearner

Joined:

Feb 10

Posts: 1953

SlowLearner says:

Beaconsman:

Not wishing to speak on Dumptruck's behalf, but why should he go into teaching?  You hear teachers whinging away every September in their national conferences, telling anyone willing to listen how crap it is, how awful the conditions, terrible pay, bleat, whine, yelp, boo-hoo and so on.

You rarely hear a teacher do anything BUT complain - unless they're bragging about how wonderful they are, and demanding recognition for their noble sacrifices.

As it happens my sister did qualify, but quit the job very early.  She'd never found such a smug, cliquey bunch of whiners and gossips. 

Out of teachers I've personally known, the above pretty much sums them up too.

*

It does show how out of touch teachers are, if they think everyone in the private sector does a straight 9 - 5:30, goes immediately in with a huge salary and lots of benefits.  Sorry mate, it ain't like that.

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SlowLearner

Joined:

Feb 10

Posts: 1953

SlowLearner says:

Private sector work

There appears to be a bit of misunderstanding about just what it's like in the private sector.  Minimum wage jobs are pretty much the standard now, with hire & fire at will commonplace.

There are "zero hours contracts", whereby you are put on standby virtually all the time, with no pay while waiting, and you must be ready to zip in whenever needed - often still at the minimum wage.

Pensions are a thing of the past, and do you really think getting inspected/ observed/ assessed VERY closely isn't part of the job in the private sector?   Do you think corporations are all cheerfully splashing out cash without keeping a damned hard look on what they're getting?

Tech corps (Dell, HP, Cisco, etc.) are not nice places to work.  There are huge workloads, usually caused by management cutting staff to the bone in regular culls right up to the point that things start to break down.

Failure to take on enormous workloads which go way past a regular 8-hour day means you're not really a "team player",  and regular salary increases are quite mythical.   We can go _years_ without a penny's raise - and just be happy we still have a job at all.

No, ANichol - we don't go "laughing all the way to the bank" even though we have to continuously prove ourselves - even with an advanced degree and all sorts of formal certifications.   IF we continually prove ourselves, we get to keep our job - if we're lucky.   And even in this paradise of the private sector, we still get hauled up to explain why things aren't working, when they're completely outside our control.

Big difference is we just don't complain and bitch about it all the damned time.

*

If I've got an unfortunate attitude towards teachers, maybe you should thank your predecessors, who loved to brutalise, humiliate and bully every chance they got.   Cowards as they were for the most part, they loved to join in with the class bully to get more acceptance.  They hated kids who were obviously smarter than them too.

And I'm speaking as one who had it relatively easy.  Teachers must think we know nothing about their profession, which is odd, since all of us have seen them work at close quarters.

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babyblade41

Joined:

Aug 05

Posts: 7562

babyblade41 says:

I do know one teacher

and I must say she is one domineering woman, but that is not because of her profession it's because she is a cow of the enth degree.

My view for what it's worth and maybe not to some peoples cup of tea but isn't teaching a vocational job? I wouldn't want to do it that's a sure fact.

I'd last maybe one day, I wouldn't be able to keep my hands off there scrawny little necks.  I sometimes think parents seem to expect teachers to instil manners etc. but that should come from home.

I'm not sure what the job entails so can't comment, but I know I get a bit naffed off when there is a teacher strike but wont engage on political issues.

But I suppose someone has to do it as long as it isn't me:smile

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ANichol

Joined:

Aug 02

Posts: 980

ANichol says:

Seen our work at close quarters

That's like saying you know what its like to be a doctor because you've been to hopsital.

I worked for a long time in the private sector too. I was never placed under such direct responsibility for the performance of people over whom I had limited authority at best in the private sector as I am as a teacher.

There is almost nothing in the way of formal disciplinary stages for students. Schools CANNOT kick them out (so there is no equivalent of firing); suspensions, etc, only make the problem of achieving a passing grade worse. There is evan now a legal debate over whether after-school detentions count as 'unlawful detention'. Consider the way that kids treat teachers, now consider whether a company would accept the same behaviour from its employees.....

Slow...why hate teachers now (like me not even born when you went to school) because teachers in the past were bad? Isn'/t that like hating doctors because they used to saw off legs in the olden days?

Minimum wage is not now "standard" in the private sector for a qualified person in a professional job. All supply teachers work the same Zero-hour contract concept, albeit above minimum wage because its not a job open to all.

As for the suck-it-and-see comments here. To my mind the point Mrs B was trying to make is that teachers fell like they're being taken the piss out of in recent years, so complain (as do a vast number of other industries); excpet when teachers do it a flurry of "They have it so easy" arguments crop up pointing out how green the grass must be on our side.........don't see many people actually stepping up to try it thouhg.

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stevebaldy

Joined:

Aug 07

Posts: 6034

stevebaldy says:

yeh teaching....

piece of piss !?.....:unsure:  of course if you are a good teacher, teaching is easy.  However, how are your Social Worker Skills? or being a childs confidante, a surrogate parent.......can you tell if that child is having an 'off' time or perhaps something is wrong at home.  My wife has unearthed several cases of abusive parent/step-parents over the years, something which you don't get taught.  Some of the cases are sickening and very harrowing for all concerned, you don't forget about the children at the end of the day.  Pressure for meeting 'targets' is huge, little wonder some schools spend more time on this than teaching itself.  How about working in a school where half of your pupils have English as a second language, youre still only going to get one teaching assistant in your classroom....if you are lucky. One school I know of has over 30 different languages spoken! How are your policing skills..... you always have your 'hyper' ADHD kids who often disrupt the class, and your Local Education Authorities policy is all for inclusion, so these little B's would practically have to stab you before they get more than a two day exclusion, could be why the Govt. are trying to encourage ex military in to teaching, nice idea, but given the 'no physical restraining' rules can't see many lasting.  If teaching was about teaching, i might consider it, but even then I doubt I could.  If you think it is all rosey, why not give it a go, there are plenty of routes into teaching nowadays........good luck, you'll need it !!   

[This Reply has been modified by the Author]

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Anonymous

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Posts:

Anonymous  says:

teaching etc

slow learner, i have also worked in the post 16 sector within engineering, so you have your opinion and Ill have mine,,,

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Anonymous

Joined:

Posts:

Anonymous  says:

teachin

as ex army, and currently an undergrad in engineering,, to put into perspective, once i graduate, I have been offered to work for leading company on aproximately 2.5 times the starting salary of a nqt.  so , I graduate, start on that salary.  Or, graduate, complete  a PGCE (5/6 grand a year whilst training) then complete anNQT year, then start teaching at £19k plus..yes, i would be laughing all the way bank and the reason is most youngster these days do not go to uni for engineering, its too hard you see.  I am working bloody hard as i have forgotten the maths i was taught in 99 for my Adv gnvq.  I should havegone to uni as a mature student but joined the army instead..so yes, i think after i have graduated ill start off on 19k a year to teach or go into the private sector on 40k plus...hmm...(this has been the salary offered CURRENTLY as we are short of engineers in the UK) my degree will cost about 5K ish, with  the OU..

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James600zx

Joined:

Sep 07

Posts: 2736

James600zx says:

.

A new graduate on £40k? Are you sure that's a firm offer of employment?

:huh:

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SlowLearner

Joined:

Feb 10

Posts: 1953

SlowLearner says:

"opinions"

Anonymous - it's not a matter of opinion, concerning which profession has the longest holidays by far,  whines the most, and decides they're unable to work for the most feeble reasons.  That is a matter of fact.

If you think you're entitled to your own facts, clearly you didn't get a very good education.  You can blame the teachers for that :wink:

*
ANichol - not sure how old you think I am (!) but I doubt you weren't born while I was in school - not unless you weren't born until the 1990s, anyway.

We were talking about the private sector generally, I thought.  If we're only talking about the truly "professional" jobs,  you'll still find very little is offered in the way of pensions or other perks.  A lengthy internship (unpaid) is also required, and you _will_ be assessed very regularly.

The idea that private sector employees just have to show up every day, and they'll get huge wages and increases regularly, is the sort of fantasy only some public sector workers can sell to themselves.   (At least we do show up every day!)

I'm not unsympathetic to public sector workers at all - but do you hear nurses complaining all the time, demanding massive rises and failing to show up in huge numbers whenever there's the slightest excuse?

Nurses also have to have degrees and extra qualifications, work damned hard and long hours, get less pay than teachers by quite a margin, have vastly fewer holidays and never go on strike.  For instance.

That's why you find a bit of a backlash for expecting a medal for doing a pretty cushy job, all said and done, with an attitude that nobody else has ever had it harder, when you can't even be bothered to keep the schools open.

Btw  - in Russia they close the infants/junior school if the temperature drops below -25 c.  The seniors get to stay home if it's under -35c.

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