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Anonymous

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Matthew Birt  says:

Ben Spies backs new Ducati strategy

Ben Spies believes Ducati’s new strategy to give full factory machinery to its entire MotoGP line-up in 2013 will be crucial in helping the Italian manufacturer close the gap to Honda and Yamaha. In a bid to develop the Desmosedici at a much faster rate and expand the amount of rider feedback, Spies, Andrea Iannone, Nicky Hayden and Andrea Dovizioso will...

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  • Posted 2 years ago (31 January 2013 16:04)

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wosihound

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Jul 12

Posts: 2924

wosihound says:

Donington 2009..

..and the crazy decision to run wets.

Very interesting interview with Suppo & Stoner.

This is the last race before Casey went missing in action..he doesn't look very ill to me?

Also..listen to what he says about Rossi. It's clear the great man is under his skin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCR6VBngZbE

 

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DogBert

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Posts: 204

DogBert says:

Nah Wosi...

...you've got it wrong man. You're reading too much into that interview. Casey is, was, a pure racer who doesn't think about championships, or other riders, just about winning each race. The "lucky Rossi" rhetoric was, well, eh, hang on, what was that? Any Casey fan care to extrapolate on that?

Is this just another example of it all going to shit because of Casey's suspect mentality, but he blames everything, and everyone he can except the true culprit, himself?

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

yes dogbert

particularly noticeable how he throws ducati under the bus and totally blames them and their bike for any problems he may have been having.

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DogBert

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DogBert says:

Yes df

Rossi complained about the Ducati, possibly because it's problematic and off the pace of the Hondas and Yamaha's. Seems fair enough to me. What about blaming the weather, or the luck of Rossi? Seems a bit odd no?

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

my point

was not related to rossi, although I left it sufficiently open deliberately; as it happens, I  think valentino was justified in his complaints concerning ducati.

My point was that contrary to your post stoner said the problems were with him rather than the bike, as he did all during 2009. The fact that you and others choose to engage in crackpot/cod psychology is not particularly relevant imo.


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CHRainmaker

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CHRainmaker says:

Wosi I couldn't respond last night..

..I was too upset!


 No point in discussing the Silverstone debacle, Stoner was convinced it would rain and he'd make the jump on everyone, all the talk was that it would. In hindsight it was a silly mistake though, and I think it lost him some credibility within his own team and was possibly even the catalyst to his eventual time out. I think it's pointless over analysing his temperament in respect to his choice, it was a racing decision and nothing more. 

Going back to our original argument, I just don't buy into this notion that the Ducati went radically backwards under Stoner. I agree, the results don't appear to back up this theory, particularly when you take 07 into account. But that's not the whole picture is it?

 Ducati had started work on the 07 bike in August 06 and had 20 variants of the 800cc engine, and had already track tested the bike in May of that year. The fact they capitalised on the slower start by their competitors only highlights why in 08 and beyond the gap grew narrower between marques. The fact is though, that bike and subsequent variants all remained competitive under Stoner. He had a run of 6 successive pole positions in 08 and ended the year on 280 points, the highest points haul without a championship win. In the first 9 races of 2009, his lowest position was 5th, before Silverstone and then his time off through illness. He comes back for a 2nd and two first place wins before crashing out at Valencia after dominating practice and taking pole. This isn't a bike in decline Wosi, he's still winning races and dominating the field and bearing in mind, we're now onto the CF chassis by this point, much derided by his critics. 2010 is arguably his worst year on the bike even though his points tally is higher than the previous season. He has issues with arm pump and continuing problems with the front end of the bike, but it's likely that by this stage he's already made his mind up to go elsewhere. However, he's still competitive and is winning races and let's not forget, Yamaha and Honda are making huge strides too at this time so none of his competitors are standing still - a point you make so strongly in relation to the current set up. 

It's not until Rossi get's on the bike there's a noticeable dip in performance, even though you have continually told us their respective times are similar. During the period Stoner was on the bike, none of the other companies stood still as you would have us believe. According to you, Rossi's times look bad because his competitors all made progress, insinuating that Ducati hadn't. And yet, the bike was always there or thereabouts during Casey's tenure, with 2007 being the noticeable highlight. So, I'm inclined to think that either Rossi didn't pull his finger out, or through too much tinkering, they made matters worse...

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weskit

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Jun 10

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weskit says:

After Donington 2009, and Casey's unfathonable decision to run wets when everyone else chose slicks Hayden chose wets too, at the time they both said the way the bike was working they wouldn't have been comfortable on slicks if the track stayed as it was. So they almost had no choice other than to take the gamble. Wosi is the master of selective memory.

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

unfathomable decisions

I think hayden going on the wets was what was unfathomable, and if this was done at stoner's behest  to justify his decision then stoner does deserve criticism.

I think what silverstone 2009 showed was that stoner was not confident that he could last out a full dry race, competitively or even at all, and he has said subsequently that he was worried he was actually a danger to others at the end of races given his state of health. He obviously didn't know what was wrong with him then, but decided after the events of silverstone , imo appropriately, that he needed to sort it out .

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

ducati from 2010 to 2012

I have to say CHR that I agree with wosi that ducati took a wrong turn, at least from the 2010 bike on anyway, I just disagree with his contention that it was stoner's fault; I don't think the 2011 and 2012 bikes were rossi's fault either. The control tyre and possible development thereof in honda's and yamaha's direction probably didn't help as has been widely speculated, but the 6 engine rule basically made the integrated engine chassis unviable whether or not it was viable at its inception. Actually the 2010 bike in stoner's hands had faster and more consistent single lap speed than I had appreciated prior to recent dispute, but that was not of much utility given the bike's inherent instability leading to the frequent dnfs which were still interspersed even with stoner's late season wins. 

What I do take issue with is wosi's threadbare sophistry in trying try to make out that valentino outperformed  stoner on the  ducati, particularly given the candid statements by valentino himself concerning this.



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hugelean

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Oct 07

Posts: 1302

hugelean says:

Pretty much bang on DF. Casey a better Ducati rider but not half as good as Rossi at putting a season together even with as bad a season as I've seen anyone have and bearing in mind he was testing new parts every race, he still wasn't that far behind Stoner in 2010, who was, lets face it, racing a bike he's been unstoppable on and had ridden for 4 seasons and according to some doing the absolute business on a great bike??? no names chr....Not one and the same thing. Stoner had a totally different approach to Rossi which is why he knew Stoners bike had to change because even with Casey on it would never win the title and casey knew it better than anyone.. It's worth noting that before ducati started tinkering there was a distinct improvement in Vales results which leads me to believe he was starting to get the hang of it but then they turned up with a new bike with no base setting nearly every race after that making the task, impossible. No doubt that Rossi would have comfortably made up the points difference to the leaders(20) that casey had the year before. Not by winning a couple of races a season at the end to make him look more competitive than he was but by turning in fairly competitive results all season long. I have no doubt Rossi would have scored quite a few more points had they left the bike alone. Certainly in the wet where it was pre tinkering brilliant..

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