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philehidiot

Joined:

Feb 09

Posts: 4618

philehidiot says:

EU new plans

They have allocated nearly £2 million to employ staff to trawl through social networks, forums, etc looking for evidence of euroskeptic opinions. They are to then find the ringleaders and discredit them.


"NINETEEN EIGHTY FOUR" WAS NOT MEANT AS A HANDBOOK ON HOW TO RUN THE PERFECT STATE.

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  • Posted 2 years ago (04 February 2013 20:25)

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weasel64

Joined:

Mar 07

Posts: 3095

weasel64 says:

what phil said

i second ..

if i were to type that lot out id still be here on sunday ???

well put phil ..

 A near dictatorship with command of armed forces is a dangerous thing, especially when it's the powerful and technologically advanced armed forces of Europe.

 

now thats scary :upset::upset:

 

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SlowLearner

Joined:

Feb 10

Posts: 1993

SlowLearner says:

philehidiot:

While much of what you're saying about a lack of democratic control (in the main, anyway) is correct, don't forget our country is not all that democratic either.

We don't vote for the monarchy, yet they nominally rule over us - on a hereditary basis - and certainly will continue to live large at our expense.  We have no say in that.  We are "subjects" of the Crown, not citizens of our country.

Then there's the  unelected upper chamber - again, largely on a hereditary basis.  A proportion of these are bishops, appointed to tell the chamber what God apparently wants us to do. 

The government is run by a party which got nowhere near 50% of the vote, and even when we're not in a coalition,  their share would never be 50% of the electorate.   We do not have any form of proportional representation to give even a semblance of democracy to our government.

If we did have PR, then greens, UKIP ,and the BNP too for that matter, would have a proportional voice.  As it is, they have none whatsoever.

As for the powers taken away from "us", what are you thinking of in particular?  Freedom of information Acts, laws saying you cannot discriminate on a number of grounds, labour protection laws (eg. against unfair dismissal, child labour, minimum wage, maximum working hours, redundancy payments and so on),  the Human Rights Act - the list is quite extensive.

If we did get out of Europe, the idea would presumably be to grovel to the Amerikans even more obsequiously than we do at present.  But would they be interested?  We're far more useful to the US as their ambassador to Europe - and have stated so openly.

Would you really want to do away with Strasbourg's Supreme Court, the final appeal for your human rights?   Would you want the bloody Tories tearing up employment protection?

Full democracy is a very dangerous thing too - and we're lucky in some respects that we don't have it.

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babyrocket

Joined:

Aug 11

Posts: 4012

babyrocket says:

discredit

ffs a little rich coming from these tossers, ministers and parliamentery types cant discredit any body, judging by the recent past history of scamming expenses, dodging speeding points and the like, so if you need any address i look forward to supplying when requested, now get back into the trough and guzzle as much of that money before it is actually used for a serious reason.

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philehidiot

Joined:

Feb 09

Posts: 4618

philehidiot says:

We

started off well with Magna Carta and then kinda got complacent. On separating from Europe we should have a Bill of Rights or something similar to enshrine in law the positive aspects of the EU laws. The Germans have made bloody internet access a human right and want it to be EU wide. That means we could sue the ISPs who let us down.... really? would that help anyone?


Powers that have gone include the ability for us to negotiate our own trade deals as we are inside a customs union and at the WTO meetings we are represented by a Eurocrat.

Foreign policy powers have gone as the EU wants a unified foreign policy.

Control of our borders has gone. At a time of mass youth unemployment, we're still open doors for young people seeking unskilled employment. We need a system like Australia more than ever until the economy recovers.

The common agricultural policy is just plain crap and actually seriously damages providers in Africa, etc. We then give them aid which damages them further - there is evidence to show that like for like countries with and without aid do better without it. What they want is for us to stop the extra duty so they can trade with us on an equal footing.

Powers over our own fishing - 100,000 (estimated) fishing jobs have gone since the common fisheries policy came in.

The power to NOT give them about £54 million a day. Do you realise that without PFI, the NHS would be in approx £2billion surplus? We could have afforded all the schools and hospitals we wanted if we weren't paying such an extreme amount of money in order to be 'grateful' that we get some back to invest in wave power and graphene. Oh Thanks, EU. We could afforded that ourselves quite happily without you.

Oh and the several hundred thousand you gave to the acting chimps with their belching song was really rather splendid, too.

EDIT: and another thing that boils my piss - that we're forced to get energy from renewables. A fine sentiment but not one that will help the environment one bit. A wind turbine saves emissions? No. Not when you examine it as part of the entire system that is the national grid. Nuclear output isn't quickly and easily modulated but gas is. Because the wind might stop blowing whilst demand remains the same, we have to have the entire capacity of wind backed up by gas turbines and because of the variable nature of wind, these have to be left on spinning reserve. It's the same as keeping your engine running at the lights so you can react instantly except much less efficient. Due to this matching of output and constantly running gas turbines, the actual emissions savings are somewhere between trivial and nil. So we've fucked our countryside for nothing and these eyesores will never cover their own "carbon cost" of construction never mind actually save emissions. When you consider the emissions the EU and the UK actually produce, we're pissing in the sea anyway. But we must obey as the EU says it's good for us, even though their own scientific report on the subject said that it's only really a display as the emissions savings globally even if the entire EU complied would be negligible at huge cost. We need Gen 3II nuclear reactors as a stop gap for Gen 4 and then fusion. Simple as. 3II fission practically everything and you can throw certain types of waste into them to fission as well and Gen 4 will fission everything. No waste. This is the way forward which is being hampered by public opinion being tainted by morons in Russia and imbaciles in Japan who ran old designs next to a geological phenomenon called "the ring of fire". Sound clever? No. Then the Germans knee jerk and go and shut down their entire nuclear industry. Are you next to a volcano or large fault line? No? Are you running dangerous experiments in poorly d

[This Reply has been modified by the Author]

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philehidiot

Joined:

Feb 09

Posts: 4618

philehidiot says:

And just to

be sure, I hope you're seeing this as a friendly debate and not personal in any way.

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SlowLearner

Joined:

Feb 10

Posts: 1993

SlowLearner says:

philehidiot:

First of all,  I'm seeing this entirely as a friendly debate, and the same with Weasel64 for that matter.

*

There are good and some shockingly bad aspects of any institution, particularly one as massive as a government, or a super-government body.  Singling out the odd example (like something about chimps, which I know nothing about) isn't all that helpful.  I could refer to a dozen good interventions from the EU, where money has gone to projects which has helped communities, just as easily.   The anti-EU propaganda has been relentless.

But onto your specific points.   Things like GATT and other WTO treaties have taken away far more sovereign powers from us that the EU, and the US is a far bigger dictator of our policies.

(If the participation rate in voting for EU representatives were more than about 20%, maybe we'd have more notice taken of our concerns.)

Getting foreign workers flooding in here during good times keeps labour costs down.   Boom times are when unions can negotiate for better conditions that will persist even in bad times.  Foreign workers wipe away that ability.  They'll also do menial jobs that British workers will not do - at least, not for the wages on offer.    Decent wages are not on offer because of the foreign slave-wage workers.

Restriction-free imports, a so-called "free trade" between us and the rest of the world makes us compete with Chinese prisoner on labour costs.  There is absolutely no way we can win that one, and it's got next to nothing to do with the EU.

But I'll certainly agree that having vastly poorer countries able to flood us with migrants (in good times or bad) is a terrible blight on the working man in this country.  But the investor class loves it.

*

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SlowLearner

Joined:

Feb 10

Posts: 1993

SlowLearner says:

philehidiot: part2/2

About the renewables - Germany was able not only to avoid commissioning new nuclear plants but also shut down existing units, because of renewable resources.  They have ramped up their solar collectors to the point that their grid had a hard time dealing with the amount generated.  Germany is about as cloudy as the UK, btw.

I understand your point about the variable nature of wind generation, but there are solutions.  Water can be pumped up into large reservoirs, which drive turbines when released at a moments' notice.   Scottish Power have operated one precisely to meet peak demand like this for decades, for instance.

In Denmark they are introducing a scheme with electric cars, which act as a huge mobile battery network.   They are connected to the grid while stationary, at home or work.   They buy electricity, but can sell back to the grid during periods of low renewable generation. 

The point being, if the average capacity of generation is sufficient, the peaks and troughs can be dealt with.

Do you think windfarms "ruin" the countryside?  Really?   I think roads, sprawling housing estates and mining operations ruin it far more.   The windmill itself will each only occupies a few square yards, the supposed damage is repairable enough.   If the scenery being "spoiled" is the problem, that's a matter of opinion.

Besides, they won't be everywhere, and one gets used to it the same way we get used to everything else.   The  anti-windfarm brigade also calls them "bird-choppers" and so on.  I've not come across any evidence for this, and presumably neither have they, because they never provide any.   I contacted the RSPB to get their opinion - they said they don't have any evidence for it (this was several years ago).
*

Anyway, straying from the point a bit.   Trident is just one programme, and is due to cost us up to £100 BILLION.   This is something that we're certainly never going to use, at least, not without the say-so (or orders) of the Americans.   You say the EU costs us £2 billion a year.  OK, granted.   I think it's a price worth paying so that we don't have any more wars between us and other EU countries, such as those we fought for almost all recorded history up until the end of WW-II. 

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Mankind

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 1526

Mankind says:

Hee hee

Just a few points. We are not subjects of the Queen any more, and have been citizens since 1949. We are now officially EU citizens, and that includes the Queen.

Ex BNP members are not allowed to join UKIP.
UKIP are definitely more far right than the third reich, as they were national socialists. 
Total state control over everything, and pretty much the polar opposite of UKIP.
Immigration suppreses wages, and helps the employers directly, but not indirectly, in the form of higher taxes, to pay for all the benefits.
It also helps politicos, who try to appear to support the less well off, to have plenty of less well off to vote for them.
In the same way it wouldn't be good for Oxfam workers, if there was no poverty in Africa.

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