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Anonymous

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MCN  says:

Rossi: 'Ducati can't deal with criticism'

Valentino Rossi has revealed more about his fractious relationship with Ducati in MCN's exclusive new interview (out on Wednesday). The 34-year-old's comments throw new light on the team's inability to make progress back up the grid – a problem he says stems from their inability to trust its riders when they point out a problem with the bike. He says in the...

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  • Posted 2 years ago (15 March 2013 14:37)

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doohanfan

Joined:

Jan 12

Posts: 1479

doohanfan says:

not my argument to defend

dogbert, but if you want to go reductio ad absurdum with no explanations or excuses of any sort applying ever, and ignoring that the quality of their bikes in those years is my opinion as is yours concerning the honda for at least the first part of the 2012 season, off the top of my head I could come up with doohan in 2002 and 2003, rossi in 2000 (and hence criville in that year,  several previous years other than 1999, and 2001), rossi in 2010, many of the other honda riders in several of doohan's championship years since they were all given his settings for qualifying and the race, and basically the team-mates of most riders who have ever won the world championship. Need I go on?

Rossi in 2004 and even more so Stoner in 2007 were the furthest away in my memory from other riders on similar bikes, although I don't really remember who else was on a suzuki other than krjr in 2000.

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weskit

Joined:

Jun 10

Posts: 510

weskit says:

Some facts

1) The 2007 Ducati had a large top speed advantage over the competition in the first half of the season. However no other rider including Rossi has been able to get the bike to turn. Someone was bleating below about how Stoner and Lorenzo aren't as good because "they haven't done the impossible like Rossi". Capirossi actually used the word "impossible" when describing the techniques Stoner used. Despite knowing exactly what those techniques were, nobody else has been able to apply them, not even Rossi.


2) Stoner actually isn't that unpopular outside of the UK and the Rimini area.

3) Stoner was nominated as the 20th MotoGP legend last year (as without doubt Rossi will be when he retires). Do you see Biaggi and Gibernau on the list anywhere?

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DogBert

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Jan 13

Posts: 204

DogBert says:

What's more absurd

Me making my point or Nostro claiming Casey won in 2007 despite his bike?

Rossi never rode the 2007 bike. That's a conveniently overlooked fact.

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AlexDAbomB69

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Feb 13

Posts: 1187

AlexDAbomB69 says:

Intresting

GP7 For 2007, MotoGP rules were changed to cap motors to a maximum displacement of 800 cc. In response, Ducati built the GP7. Its specifications were: 800 cc bike, double L-Twin motor (4 Cylinder Twin Pulse), approximately 168 kW (225 hp) at 19000 rpm and a greater than 330 km/h top speed (Confirmed 337.2 km/h (209.6 mph)).[citation needed] Ducati started its project to build an 800 cc MotoGP bike extremely early and according to Ducati's racing chief Filippo Preziosi, by August 2006 Ducati had already built twenty 800 cc engines with various specifications. In addition, an early version of the bike was track tested for the first time during early May 2006. Public testing with the bike began at the Brno Track, where Loris Capirossi had won the day before riding the GP6, on the 21st of August. Capirossi's lap times on the prototype GP7 were only 1.4 seconds off his track record time set on the 990 cc GP6. Further testing of the GP7 in Motegi, Japan, revealed that the 800 cc machine could run faster laps than the higher-displacement 990 cc bikes, and held nearly a second advantage over the next fastest 800 cc bike, a Honda ridden by Dani Pedrosa. MotoGP's 800 cc era officially began with the first race of the 2007 MotoGP season, at the Losail International Circuit in Qatar. Casey Stoner won the race on the new GP7. The bike had a clear top speed advantage over the rest of the grid, due to its higher output motor. A new track record was set on the GP7. Second place contender and five time former World champion, Yamaha's Valentino Rossi, complained that "unfortunately, there was too much difference between (our) bikes in the straight" and "Our Yamaha will never go as quick on a straight as the Ducati." These words turned out to be true, as the GP7 enjoyed a top speed advantage throughout the season, although the other manufacturers (Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki) closed the gap significantly by the end of the year. Stoner and his Bridgestone-shod Ducati proved to be the top combination in MotoGP and he won the world championship at Motegi, Japan, on September 23, 2007, four races before the end of the season. Intresting.

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doohanfan

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Posts: 1479

doohanfan says:

you guys keep

equating a straightline advantage with overall superiority despite all evidence to the contrary dogbert, and rossi's and jb's statements as to what stoner did on the bike and the problems with the power delivery etc which ducati's  focus on power at any cost brought.

We will never know how rossi would have gone on that bike, but there is absolutely no evidence of any sort that anyone else could have done what stoner did on the thing, and the difference between stoner and his teammates on the ducati in 2007 and 2008 is among the greatest there has ever been. My opinion is the same as agostini's, that stoner like hailwood could get the most out of a flawed bike but was not so superior on a good bike.

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weskit

Joined:

Jun 10

Posts: 510

weskit says:

.

By all accounts the basic understeer character hasn't changed since 2007 despite all the different frames. You make the inference. 


Yes i guess that is interesting Alex, if you've been living under a rock for the past 5 years. Remind me where Ducati's #1 rider finished in 2007?

Bike magazine June 2009 if anyone cares to read Guintoli's view on Stoner vs Rossi.

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hugelean

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Oct 07

Posts: 1302

hugelean says:

It's not important now but both of Casey's winning seasons Rossi rode a turd. Every season Rossi had a half decent bike he beat stoner comfortably.. That's plain fact. The only other point is that Casey and Jorge have had to wait their turns for their titles when everything has gone their way , usually based on equipment or injury and neither ever looked like winning back to back titles. The very best take the title from everyone else then dominate them completely(Rossi, Doohan).. Despite being an old man when the current frontrunners and casey were in their prime Rossi was the only rider to back to back championships and with Lorenzo as a teammate. Rossi's 2008 title is severely underestimated. Casey was miles ahead of the competition(remember Donnington, Assen et al, 3 on the bounce by a huge margin) and his bike was still miles faster, vs Rossi's first season on a new brand of tyre one which his bike had never used before, Stoner should have won comfortably. No matter what, that puts Rossi's performance of that time above everyone else.. Yes, I know casey had most wins, but most came in just 2 seasons several years apart(showing with the right equipment and everyone else struggling he was a real force) and all but a couple of the rest came after the title had been decided, one which he usually was even a contender in.. Casey was a great rider and exciting, but at his peak Rossi tore the title from him and dominated him completely till, of course Rossi for some bizarre reason jumped on the worst bike(pound for pound) on the grid.

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wosihound

Joined:

Jul 12

Posts: 2899

wosihound says:

Good grief..

Get you paranoid shit together DF..

I'm not talking about Stoner specifically..just using him in the context of modern riders and their bikes, compared to likes of Biaggi.

I'm not asking for his titles to be stripped..just pointing out he won very little before 2007 on the Ducati and, the dominance he showed that season was never repeated until he jumped on another stand-out package in 2011, on which he failed to outshine his team mate the following year.

Casey Stoner was an amazing talent..unbelieveably fast on his day and dynamite straight out the box. It was difficult to understand how he did it. His time at Ducati propped up the factory and confused Preziosi who thought his bike was a lot better than it actually was.

This was Ducati's mistake..not Stoners. They said they had realised it and wanted to make a bike for everyone..then lost their bottle to implement the wholesale change required and blamed Rossi, the bloke they'd paid fortunes to entrust the direction of that change. 

They are in a dark place right now and have nobody to blame but themselves.

Saying this, Stoner was lead rider and must have given feedback. Granted, he was very young with little experience outside Bologna but there is little doubt the bike stagnated. His results back this up and to my mind, he must take some responsibility.

The same as he must take some responsibility for his decisions in 2012..the way rode and managed his championship challenge, which failed.

As a bloke his spiky personality was his worst enemy..I'd add petulant and juvenile to Saturns list. Nakamoto agrees and said that Casey was immature.

You cannot divorce Stoners attitude and the way he went about his business from his record. The kid won two titles which is fantastic compared to 99% of the riders who compete at the highest level.

But, you just know he thinks it should have been more by listening to his excuses why not..he ain't a happy bunny.

Saying you made a mistake is one thing..altering your approch to make sure it doesn't happen again is how we learn and grow up, and is another thing altogether. Older & wiser as they say.

Stoner thought he was above this basic requirement and that talent alone would see him right..he was wrong. 

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doohanfan

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Jan 12

Posts: 1479

doohanfan says:

your opinion

hugelean, as what I post is mine.

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DogBert

Joined:

Jan 13

Posts: 204

DogBert says:

Evidence

but there is absolutely no evidence of any sort that anyone else could have done what stoner did on the thing

Really? Capirossi, who I think we can all agree is great, but not Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo great, managed four podiums in 2007, as well as four DNFs.

He struggled on it no doubt, but also has some success. Would someone better have had more success?

Anyway, did Stoner win in 2007 despite his bike?

I'm starting to sound like Jeremy Paxman.

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