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Anonymous

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Matthew Birt  says:

When Spencer met Marquez

For 31 long years, American legend Freddie Spencer held the distinction of being the youngest rider in history ever to win in the MotoGP class.That was until the mercurial Marc Marquez arrived in MotoGP in 2013 and broke Spencer’s record with a historic win in the inaugural Circuit of the Americas clash in Texas back in April.Spencer, who was 20...

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  • Posted 311 days ago (10 June 2013 17:33)

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Richard1967

Joined:

Apr 09

Posts: 1309

Richard1967 says:

Conflation

Anyone else think MotoGP and 500cc GP shouldnt be conflated? probably just me , thought i'd ask

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PaceyCasey

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Jun 11

Posts: 2421

PaceyCasey says:

Why shouldn't they be?

The best riders at the time aboard the best bikes. Where's the problem?

 

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Richard1967

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Apr 09

Posts: 1309

Richard1967 says:

Well

Best ? maybe even if they were/are its a little subjective and 1000cc verses 500cc ? the 500cc world championship always used to be 500 cc from 1949 to 2001 , then MotoGP it changed to 990 and were MotoGP . can we say 125cc gp's were Moto3? can we say the 250cc championship was Moto2? things change ,Im in no way saying one particular engine size had superior riders , but they are very different engine sizes. In addition , in the 80 we had a class of bike called Formula 1 which just had to have the same crankcases as a road going bike , GS1000 etc , nearer to MotoGP

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wosihound

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Jul 12

Posts: 2668

wosihound says:

Rise of the machine..

Props to Marquez for saying what some of us already knew.."..It's a completely different world."..and one where rider aids have replaced intuition and flair.

Average pilots on computer controlled bikes that think for themselves and make the decisions.

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Hedgehog5

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Aug 02

Posts: 2315

Hedgehog5 says:

Faster, safer & best...

The Moto2 guys are circulating at about the pace of the old 500s & have less electronic gadgetry on them... that's Moto2 racers on Moto2 600cc 4-stroke bikes (detuned for longevity) going as fast as the best of the best on old 500s (tuned to the point of regularly going bang)... great racing but do you really want to go back to that? Take away the electronics & put them on machines that want to spit them off at every turn & that's what you'll have.

MotoGP is about being the best (within a formula which we don't always agree with)... improvement, progression... in the 80s there were 6 deaths in the 500s & many more debilitating injuries... we're down to 1 per decade now despite increased lap times... there have been improvements in safety throughout... motocycle design plays its part.

Is it the right direction? Moto2 races can be far more entertaining... when you're slower there are more ways around a corner & you can afford to make mistakes without being left with an insurmountable gap. Personally I like both.

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wosihound

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Jul 12

Posts: 2668

wosihound says:

Just because Moto2 uses a spec ECU/sensor package supplied by HRC, doesn't mean there are no electronics. It's just the software is pre-written and supposed to have the same adjustment parameters for everyone.

I get the impression Hedgehog5 is suggesting Redding, Rabat & Espargaro are better riders than Rainey, Doohan, Schwantz & Lawson because lap times are similar 15 plus years on?

130kg, 190bhp 2T 500's were slower and easier to ride than 150kg, 130bhp 4T 600's?

I don't think so.

He fails to factor in improvements elsewhere too..tyres, suspension, chassis design etc.

 

In any case we are talking about the top class..where we want to see the best riders' skill as the deciding factor. Not to have it dumbed down by data techies who have a different agenda.

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Hedgehog5

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Aug 02

Posts: 2315

Hedgehog5 says:

Wosi...

"Just because Moto2 uses a spec ECU/sensor package supplied by HRC, doesn't mean there are no electronics"

I was comparing late era 500 pace when they had that benefit too (albeit in its infancy)... go back a few years to when you're referring to & it gets worse.

"130kg, 190bhp 2T 500's were slower and easier to ride than 150kg, 130bhp 4T 600's?"

Slower?... back then yes... the 600s on standard race tyres are often faster than the 500s on overnight special qualies of 12 years ago... & as I said, that's with Moto2 riders on...

"I get the impression Hedgehog5 is suggesting Redding, Rabat & Espargaro are better riders than Rainey, Doohan, Schwantz & Lawson because lap times are similar 15 plus years on?"

No... the opposite... I said the 600s were as fast as 500s (with the primative electronic aids of the day) with just Moto2 riders on board... the best of the best would be even faster putting the old 500s even more in the shade... don't you think so?

Maybe that gap could be made up with frame design, & maybe today's standard 1 make race tyres are better than the overnight qualifiers they used to have made to suit each circuit/bike/rider 12 years ago... but that would make them as fast as their support series... wow. Effectively you could group them all together in one series & it would be closer than the CRTs are to MotoGP.

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Nostrodamus

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 4508

Nostrodamus says:

I think you'll find Wosi

The top three riders in the world occupy the top three places in MotoGP. These 'average pilots' on factory bikes you mention can be found around the 6th place mark on the points table.

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jamieg999

Joined:

Jul 08

Posts: 1538

jamieg999 says:

It's the same but different

It's still prototype GP racing and it's still the best riders competing. The format has changed but what happens flag to flag is still racing.

Wosi: you've tried to deny the march of evolution for yonks and it's hard to see why except for nostalgic purposes. If you could insert any rider from any era into another era I'm sure they'd generally perform at a similar level to their actual stats, some wouldn't get on with different kit no doubt but we're talking racers on the best bikes available for racing and a lot of the rest is subjective.

Would Spencer do the business if born in 1993? Highly probable, would Marquez perform if he were a hippy child? Same as. You may have a point that 2013 Marquez might have a laugh on a 500 and equally that 20 year old Fast Freddie might struggle if dropped on a bike built 30 years in the future but they're the same thing duck.

 

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TrumpetTriple

Joined:

Aug 02

Posts: 510

Aaah Nostro

Is this average rider in 6th you refer to the 9 times world champion, 7 of which were in the premier class, if so i wish i were as good as average too .. have you thought of having some sort of therapy about your little obsession bud, it would help you immeasurably.

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