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Anonymous

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Matthew Birt  says:

Valentino Rossi blasts ‘crazy’ Alvaro Bautista

Valentino Rossi has urged MotoGP bosses to speak to Alvaro Bautista after the Italian was almost caught up in a first lap incident with the Gresini Honda rider for the second race in succession in Barcelona yesterday. Rossi and Bautista collided on the opening lap of the nine-times world champion’s home race in Mugello earlier this month and both crashed heavily. Both...

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  • Posted 2 years ago (17 June 2013 10:22)

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

BB

I watched the whole thing again (it is at about 49 minutes into the full race video) and my recollection was not incorrect (it usually isn't, as I have that certain type of memory) but my perception or interpretation admittedly may be, and your perspective as an ex-racer may well be more informed than all the other people I have debated this with in the past, and certainly than mine as I have very definitely never raced.

Simoncelli started behind Pedrosa on one side of the track, made a clean pass on Dani and ended in front of him by more than the length of his bike on the edge of the same side of the track, and the two eventually came together after a short straight on the same side of the track, going into a left-hander as you say.

Dani definitely did not get a bike length in front of Marco, and the eventual point of contact was with Marco's back wheel. To my mind as Dani was the one attempting the pass (Marco had already cleanly passed him prior to the straight) he needed to complete the pass before the corner, and would have been well aware of what would  happen if Marco didn't concede the corner. I agree one of them needed to concede the corner, I just can't see that there was more onus on Marco to do so. Certainly if  Marco hadn't turned in he would have gone straight ahead and off the track on the other side of the circuit by my notions of the laws of physics.

This swings on who you consider was attempting to pass, and who you consider of the two should have conceded the corner, imo. I don't believe the guy who had just caught up 3 seconds, made a decisive pass  and was quite likely thinking about winning the race was the one with the onus to concede, but that is just my opinion.

Certainly I agree if he had conceded the corner he easily could have re-passed Dani, but that cuts both ways and if this was the case Dani was presumably also aware of it. Very definitely only in my opinion with no evidence I think Dani was quite possibly motivated by considerations other than that corner in that race, with Simoncelli being touted at the time as the coming thing, and him being eclipsed at that time by Stoner as well as being the butt of long term criticism as to his unwillingness or inability to fight when passed.

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Bultoboy

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Bultoboy says:

Not sure DF

As I haven't watched an entire re-run, but I have found the crash incident and it's pretty well as I remembered. Simmo comes up the inside of Pedrosa at a right hander and makes a good pass. Coming out of the corner onto the straight that leads to the left hander where the crash was, Pedrosa gets better drive and is definitely a bike length ahead and on the inside of Simmo coming up to the left hander. He still looks to be ahead as they begin turning in but Simmo, being on the conventional line for the corner was able to go deeper on the brakes than Pedrosa who was on a tighter line. Simmo sweeps from the outside and cut in front of Pedrosa and they touched.

For me, Simmo must have known that move was a gamble, Pedrosa couldn't have known anything about it. Pedrosa's on board camera shows Simmo's back suddenly fill the camera lens which must be pretty well all that Pedrosa saw of Simmo but too late by then to do anything.

Simmo's fault for me, that one.

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

obviously our opinions differ BB,

and never the twain shall meet, but in this case what we actually saw differs, because I don't see that he did better than get abreast of Simoncelli, except perhaps briefly right before the corner when he may have had part of a wheel in front, the point where some have contended he hit a bump and his bike skittered a little.

On this occasion imo, as opposed to several others, Marco was the one who had ridden the composed race, made the clean and precise pass, and as you yourself say had the fast and conventional line for the corner. If Dani wanted to pass him on an unconventional line, he needed to complete his pass before the corner, imo. As with the Dovi/Bautista incident being discussed on the other thread, did Dani think for some reason Marco wasn't going to turn for this particular corner as opposed to every other corner in the race? Imo at worst 40% Marco's fault, probably more like 20%.

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Bultoboy

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Bultoboy says:

They do

Don't worry though as I'm not going to do a Wosi and just repeat the same stuff over and over. We have different opinions and fair enough.

If you look at the side on view as they pass the camera though, you can see Pedrosa virtually a bike length ahead. At this point Simmo knows exactly where Pedrosa is but Pedrosa now won't know how far ahead he is of Simmo, other than he's ahead. Pedrosa is on the normal line for an overtake - down the inside, but not the best line for that corner. It's a move Rossi uses well, just put yourself between the other rider and the corner. Simmo was obviously entitled to stick with him around the outside or even try to re-pass him around the outside but from his position he knew the line Pedrosa was on and he cut in too soon and too close to him. Not deliberately in my opinion but he misjudged it and cut in too sharp. Pedrosa could do nothing.

Like the rules on the skiing slopes, the onus to avoid a collision is generally with the person behind as they are able to see what the rider in front is doing and react to it. The rider in front has no idea what is going on behind.

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

As I said,

I don't think he ever got a bike length in front of Simoncelli, and nor does anyone else I have ever seen debate the issue, pro- or anti- Simoncelli. They were in close proximity along the straight. He knew exactly where Marco was, and where he would be going if he didn't concede the corner, unless he thought he was going to disappear into an alternate reality. The issue for most is whether Simoncelli should have conceded the corner.

I realise most of these things come down to your opinion of the riders involved, for me as well. I do try to be consistent though, and for me this incident, Stoner-Bautista last year, and Marquez -Lorenzo this year, are fairly similar, with very different allocation of blame, and despite being a Stoner fan I wouldn't seek to exonerate Stoner, despite him going the closest to making a legitimate pass.

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Bultoboy

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Bultoboy says:

Have a look at this, at about 14 seconds he looks to me to be almost a bike length past, but Simmo then goes back at him courtesy of his wider line

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OT5wMWM_Jk

I was never a Simmo fan but neither did I have anything against him or his riding and never saw anything of him in the smaller classes. In Motogp I think he was over hyped as a potential world champion as he crashed much too often. In his last season he crashed out with self induced crashes in 50% (I think) of his races, the last one unfortunately leading to his fatal accident.

I still think the onus was on him in this one to have anticipated what might have happened but accept we have different views.

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doohanfan

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doohanfan says:

sure BB

and I share your opinion of poor Marco in the premier class in general, but he definitely had native speed and talent, greater than say Bautista's imo, and managed to settle down from being erratic initially in other classes to being a 250 world champion. I think if the race we are discussing had gone differently it may have changed his career; we will now unfortunately never know how he might have progressed.

As I have said, imo Dani on any assessment pushed for the corner very hard himself, for what would seem likely to have been of little benefit to his race even if he had succeeded, and may have been trying to prove something rather than just beat Simoncelli in the race. 

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