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Anonymous

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Matthew Birt  says:

No corner speed gain for factory Honda

Honda has so far failed in its bid to make its factory RC213V machine a match for Yamaha’s YZR-M1 on corner speed. Improved corner speed has been a key target for Honda’s technical staff during the off-season. But after giving reigning world champion Marc Marquez and Dani Pedrosa a new 2014-spec chassis to test during last week’s three-day MotoGP test in Malaysia,...

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  • Posted 196 days ago (13 February 2014 12:25)

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hello4646

Joined:

Oct 08

Posts: 568

hello4646 says:

Unless

 Your name is MM!

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wosihound

Joined:

Jul 12

Posts: 3024

wosihound says:

er..righto

..just like the proddy racer was only a cock-hair behind the works bike.

Can we believe anything Walrus San says?

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ChupaChump

Joined:

Aug 11

Posts: 439

ChupaChump says:

L4 to blame?

It's a wonder it corners at all when you consider how woeful the D16 is.  

Will Yamaha's new chassis have less emphasis on high corner speed so even things out a bit? 

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DeGrasse

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Aug 13

Posts: 2703

DeGrasse says:

ChupaChump

 That's what the first version of the 2014 prototype (described in MCN at its roll out) led to think, and in any case, considering that they have been struggling with the same issues nearly all year, trying to improve corner entry and turning on the brakes, grip during acceleration etc, one ca see that there little chance to achieve that with the same geometry than what they started 2013 with.

In short, you CANT have both, it got to be a compromise, if they managed to get the bike to turn better the wheel base has to be altered as well as weight distribution.

The prototype had provision for different engine mounting in the frame (plus new engine case to help) and different swing arm.

Chances are the geometry of the bike they tested in Sepang is already well different although not as extreme in the opposite trend as the Honda but i'm quiet sure they walked away from the "big 250" 2011/12 geometry.

As for Honda i don't think they tried that hard...

 

 

 

 

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ChupaChump

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Posts: 439

ChupaChump says:

i'm quite sure they walked away from the "big 250" 2011/12 geometry.

So will their #1 rider be able to ride the new version as well as the bike that was built to suit his needs?  

If he can't then he might head over to HRC next year.  (assuming they're still participating by then)

 

 

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DeGrasse

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DeGrasse says:

ChupaChump

 The "big 250" was Lorenzo "development" bike, it suits his style, based on corner speed a lot more than a more ballanced bike which would be better on the brakes (he brakes earlier and more moderately) and allow for more control on the gas.

If he moves to Honda i hardly see them changing their world title winning chassis for him....

Honda are not stupid, since Doohan they had to exploit their engine capabilities and sliding it was always part of the way it had to be riden, over the length of the season, in terms of mileage, there is more to gain braking hard and sliding the bike out of corners than being the fastest at the apex.

It makes Gorges hard to pass but not the fastest over one lap, all Honda had to do is to improve on their start and first few laps to counter this...

As for his ability to adapt, mmmm from 2008 he never convinced me he was feeling good sliding the Yamaha but then again from 2011 the M1 was a death trap when it went from the rear, it twistsed itself to knots in a way i never seen even a 500 do, it would loose traction from the front as early as the back goes, so i wont give an opinion, frankly i don't know.

 

 

 

 

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Nostrodamus

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Mar 09

Posts: 5142

Nostrodamus says:

DeGrasse

the first true words you've spoken frankly i don't know.

But I'm going to be easy on you this time. Because whilst you state your case in a patently Lorenzo hating way, there is a modicum of validity to some of your assertions.

Honda have always had engine and Yamaha always chassis. With rare exception this has been the way in GP's since time immemorial. Why? A whole host of reasons over the years. Crazy underslung fuel tank, forward spinning single crank versus contra rotating twin cranks with NSR's vs YZR's to name a couple. That's not to say however that history will always repeat itself. Even now the RCV still looks a nervous bit of kit in comparison to the railing M1. Both attributes augmented and enhanced by the riding styles of all four factory boys. Neat and tidy Rossi and Lorenzo, looser Pedro (who's adapted to ride in this manner) and wild MM who seems to treat every bike like a dirt tracker.

I too doubt Lorenzo's ability to adapt to the Honda, as well as say Pedrosa would to the M1. That said it probably escaped your attention but last year Lorenzo was squaring off corners with nice slides and picking the bike up to drive far earlier that he had in years past (so your tying in knots line is pure B/S). Which is the reason the largely ignorant bike media went quiet on the M1's supposed lack of acceleration and started bleating about the front - mainly because Rossi told them so. Unquestionably Lorenzo with his eight wins was the best rider of 2013, but he got physically punished for his rare mistakes whereas young Marquez didn't to the same degree despite his many indiscretions.

This big 250 thing you keep harping on about. That is what GP bikes became with the advent of the 800's and the huge lean angles the Bridgestones allow. Lorenzo came into MotoGP a double world champ when the V line was usurped by the U line (Stoner notwithstanding). Now with the litre bikes that line is moving back again towards the V. Lorenzo is adapting extremely well to it. He did win the inaugural litre bike class after all and has continued his progress nicely as the winningiest rider in the class which makes a complete mockery of your slagging. So if he did go to HRC then there's every chance he'd prove us both wrong - hedging my bets a little here though.

Even the Terrapin is stating he didn't adapt as well as he should have 2013, and look where that got him. I can see him trying to bring a V line approach back to his riding, but ultimately I don't see him with the skill set of the three Aliens to be able to do so.

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DeGrasse

Joined:

Aug 13

Posts: 2703

DeGrasse says:

Nostrodamus

 Apart for your usual trolling trick and personal attack what exactly do you contribute at all to this forum?

Retarded self-conscious keyboard riders like you can make total abstraction of news published by MCN and multiple-world champs comments on the subject, what a pitty there is no "ignore list" to blank out your replies.

Example: "This big 250 thing you keep harping on about. That is what GP bikes became with the advent of the 800's and the huge lean angles the Bridgestones allow".

Really? So you followed the Yamaha chassis evolution from 2008 onward and even drove the 2011 model, then lean angle thanks to tires progress has something to do with chassis geometry now?

 You're a genius you should submit your candidature to HRC they need your help.

A simple look at the technical description of the Yamaha chassis explains a lot:

Longer wheel base from 2011 onward, emphasis on the rear wheel weight, nothing like the Honda and even not the Ducati but as always you miss half the points by lack of interest on the subject, looks to me that you're more into attention grabbing than anything else.

Lorenzo came from the 250 cc so does his manager, had Stoner and Burgess been in charge of the M1 development from 2010 the chassis would be totally different.

The 250 cc is a category where one rides on corner speed and have to be smooth, precise, to compensate for the relative absence of power, i guess you wouldn't know since you haven't driven one, if you had we wouldn't have these endless conversation demonstrating how ignorant you can be.

As for Lorenzo being adaptable to sliding the Yamaha on the gas, AGAIN you are mistaking him for the Honda riders, he hardly learned to do it since the M1 was near unridable this way from 2011 and he spent more time over the handle bar than on the podium in 2008, compare to Rossi scores in 500 cc for a laugh and btw, Rossi couldn't even put the bike sideays on the brakes to reduce weight transfer as he used to with the 2013 bike.

Everyone can see how the Honda riders, even Pedrosa square the corners and how Lorenzo looses it when he tries.

In short mate, you're into psychopatic tit-for-tat writing, not technical motorcycle stuff, you have the guts to pretend to know better than the best in the world including Burgess, hoping that everyone reads as little as you do on the subject.

Take a break, you're beginning to ware out and it's not me you should "be easy" on, it''s yourself. Joke. ps when i need a specialist opinion i know where to ask and you're not on my list. 

ps 2, all the details that you throw in confusion about seat position and fuel tank are the result of the change of geometry of the chassis and Yamaha trying to recover the balance they lost from the 2010 M1, well detailed by Burgess, as for K. Roberts, he was not talking about the 800 cc but the M1 50th Anniversary edition he drove in the USA, he has no reference to compare to other Moto GP bikes and as opposed to you, don't talk about what he doesn't know. Have a better day (if you can).


Chosen quotes: (Compasre to Honda riders on the RC).

KR: No, because this bike is so much more precise, you're never going to get into the positions that we could get our bikes in. You know, we could over-ride our bikes, we could make it move around, we could slide it and make it turn, and two-strokes had a lot different powerband. This thing isn't going to do that, it's not going to slide going in, and set it up coming out. It ain't going to do that.

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DeGrasse

Joined:

Aug 13

Posts: 2703

DeGrasse says:

A little more for a laugh.

 KENNY ROBERTS
“Marc has lit it up and it has been fantastic. He’s got a lot of corner speed and a lot of lean angle and I had my doubts at the beginning because it is hard to stay on top of that. At the lean angle these guys are achieving and the bikes they have to ride it can spit you off over a house a few times and you always have that at the back of your mind.

To go at that angle and to turn the throttle at that angle and have no second guessing at all is impressive.


WAYNE RAINEY
“Marquez doesn't mind the bike moving around and it is really nice to see that. If the bike doesn't move around how do you what it is going to do? Marc goes fast enough to where the bike moves and I have always thought that is the correct way to do it. You have get the bike moving so you know where it is.

ps: The result of the 2011 chassis geometry is an overall more stable bike (moves less during transition and acceleration) but not as strong on the brakes, less agile and a lot more difficult to control on the gas.

 

 

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Nostrodamus

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 5142

Nostrodamus says:

What's one of Nostro's main functions on this forum?

To extinguish the mindless ramblings and pure bullshit spun by little yellow bedwetters like you Backpaddock. The tools for doing so are oh so easy to use, simply being as they are - fact and reality.

Facts like yes Yamaha have followed a development path based on the requirements of their lead rider Lorenzo, just as they did in the day the Terrapin was in such a position. Have they been justified? Well that is a clear no-brainer, one world title, and only four points from a second, not to mention having the winningiest rider in the litre bike class. And yet you argue against this through nothing more than sheer bigotry. You're a class A idiot.

In your incredibly opinionated pomposity you speak as if you know the exact dimensions of every MotoGP bike on the grid, their respective rake, trail, offset, wheelbase, swingarm length, weight distribution, chassis stiffness ratios and how each of these attributes interact with each other, the engine characteristics, the clutch and gearbox. The truth of the matter though, as with everything with you, is fundamentally different though isn't it. You wouldn't have a scooby. Revelation for DeGrasse - the factories don't divulge this information to anyone!

You can pluck random quotes all you like, none of which have ever served to emphasise any supposed points you've made. As it is I happen to agree with Rainey. But you'd be very naive to believe that Lorenzo wasn't pushing that front pretty damn hard, and only closed eyes cannot see him spin the rear. As for your continual reference to Kenny Roberts very senior on a 800 M1 jolly ride at probably way more than 10 seconds off a race pace - that just gets funnier every time you mention it

What I do is observe from a perspective of thirty years of following GP racing and a decade of club and national level racing experience with a reasonable bit of winning thrown in there I might add. Observation - a trait you so clearly struggle to emmulate. Like all bedwetters you're two thirds of a classic three monkeys character. Eyes and ears firmly shut. A pity your gob keeps flapping, although it serves extremely well in discrediting yourself. The more I read of you, the more I realise there's an asylum missing a patient.
 

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