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Anonymous

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Liam Marsden  says:

Qatar MotoGP: Marquez storms to victory

Reigning champion Marc Marquez battled through the pain barrier of a broken leg to take victory at the Losail circuit. The Repsol Honda rider started from pole position and had to battle with Stefan Bradl and Valentino Rossi to take 25 points. Rossi made Marquez fight right to the wire, with the pair swapping places several times on the penultimate lap. Rossi...

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  • Posted 125 days ago (23 March 2014 19:55)

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doohanfan

Joined:

Jan 12

Posts: 1463

doohanfan says:

this post

is again an example of that which you accuse others De Grasse, ie  equating disagreement with your opinion to  trolling/flaming, then proceeding to personal invective at far greater length than those of whom you disapprove. I think the technical term is projection.

 I have no reason to doubt that you have more experience with racing bikes than most, certainly including me, and also no doubt that Valentino Rossi is one of the best, if not the best, at setting up a GP bike there has ever been. If you are not a construct designed to enliven the forum, I highly doubt that you are Valentino Rossi  either though, and unless you are  what is implicit in your arguments, that you know more about racing bikes than Jorge Lorenzo and Ramon Forcada do, is unlikely to be true. 

Again, I have no problem with your theories about bike design, which are quite interesting, or with your acclamation of Kenny Roberts as a revolutionary figure in GP bike racing, both as a rider and otherwise. He was before even my time as a follower of the sport, but anyone who knows anything about the history of the sport is aware of him as a rider and subsequently as a team manager, and his tiny operation coming up with a chassis/frame that remarkably nearly won a race in his son's hands more recently.

What he hasn't ever done to my knowledge, and certainly not in the interviews you cite, is criticise Jorge Lorenzo as a rider or a bike developer. We don't even know which iteration of the Yamaha 800 gp bike he rode in July 2011, only that it was "specially prepared" and had the electronics mostly turned off.  Those things were unrideable by the contemporary GP riders with the electronics off, and the formula was quite possibly devised by Honda with a design philosophy and to suit a riding style closer to a 250 style than the golden era 500 style, which like you I found immensely preferable.This was not at all Jorge Lorenzo's fault as far as I can see; perhaps Dani Pedrosa can be partly blamed since many consider the formula was designed for him (or perhaps he was designed for it).

KR does obviously really rate MM, probably at least  by implication more highly than Jorge, but this doesn't mean Jorge didn't do really well last year, rather than wrecking Valentino's bike as you continually claim. I am sure Valentino would have done better than he did on a bike and tyres he had developed to be more suited to his personal style, but whether he would have done as well as Jorge did is another question and, in my opinion only, he still wouldn't have beaten MM on that HRC bike at that stage in his career.  

To my doubtless ignorant (in comparison to yours) eyes, Valentino's style is closer to a 250 style than MM's or Stoner's, and sliding the bike is not a prominent aspect of it, although he was obviously happy to have the bike moving as his career-long prowess on worn tyres demonstrates.  The most I have ever seen him slide was in late 2010 racing Stoner at PI, although that was perhaps still "his" bike rather than Jorge's by your criteria.

Sure, now the Yamaha engine seems to have changed for the better and the tyres have definitely changed, and Dorna are deliberately attempting to get back to 500 or 990 type racing rather than sponsor engineering exercises by Honda, the extreme riding style employed by Jorge last year very likely won't cut it, but he was pretty good at riding the "Rossi" Yamahas in 2009 and early 2010.  

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DeGrasse

Joined:

Aug 13

Posts: 2324

DeGrasse says:

doohanfan

My opinion? Get a grip boy, this is not "MY OPINION" but that of other people, in particular those who knows what they write about as opposed to you, so your lecture about how I do "this or that" is yet more manure spitting, any comment on M-C at all or what they have to say?

Now instead of B-Sting everyone why don't you have a look for yourself? Oh, let me guess, it would destroy YOUR argument and render YOUR opinion totally void.

What a surprise, this "opinion" things is used by forum trolls the world over and a speciality of the SloMos in this forum, they deny evidences thrown at them by putting someone else label on them, not too smart.

Where is "MY OPINION" when it comes striaght from Yamaha Racing, Moto gp, Kenny Roberts, Jeremi Burgess or Massimo Meregalli?

Something else, this other troll's trick about "not knowing", excuse ME, you're prompt to try to take me on but obviously you didn't bother reading my posts or the links i posted...

YOU "don't even know" that's a fact, YOU didn't do any researches on the subject, YOU don't take the information on board, but YOU try to make of YOUR mediocre information skills a standard.

Now go learn something about Yamaha, chassis and riding style, you got some good source of information there and it's free. Cheers.

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DeGrasse

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DeGrasse says:

The quote winning the funniest of the decade:

"Valentino's style is closer to a 250 style than MM's or Stoner's"

Do you realise that the  Yamaha and the Honda have had a different chassis since the first Honda GP 500?

The Yamaha was never sliding the way the Honda or the Suzuki were, but it always was since K.R.

Rossi was always sliding the bikes he rode passed the 250, and sliding means that the rear wheel rotates at a different speed than the front, slower on the brakes and faster on the gas, not necessarily that it goes sideways.
Had you watched the moto gp video you'd have eared Roberts saying Marques goes further than the rest on this particular topic and he have the right chassis for doing that.
Example: The RC have a very good chassis for braking, turning-in, turning on the brakes and accelerating but they loose on corner speed.
Reason for the Yamaha to be better at Assen, even Stoner couldn't beat Spies, nor Marquez Rossi there, the Honda could be said to slide too much on such a track.
What Yamaha are trying to do with the 2014 is to come back to a more balanced chassis because they were loosing too much in the areas where the RC was better.

"The most I have ever seen him slide was in late 2010 racing Stoner at PI, although that was perhaps still "his" bike rather than Jorge's by your criteria".

It's not "MY criteria" it's reality, chassis geometry is not skateboard technology, you can't ride a bike the way it's not designed or set up to, time to get more technical and less personal for your own stake.
Burgess on the 2011 M1 and settings.

250 style is about corner speed and requires a different geometry and weight distribution, as well as being ridden differently.

I saw Rossi slide the 500, the RC, the M1, obviously not the 2013 M1 and i have explained why.
I suggest you spend a little less time taking people on and more looking into the links they graciously provide to you in order to inform you.
Rossi power slide RC Honda.
Rear wheel steering on the rear brake. Rossi.

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doohanfan

Joined:

Jan 12

Posts: 1463

doohanfan says:

qed

De Grasse.

It is simple, find me a quote from Kenny Roberts about Jorge Lorenzo which bears out what you say. My objection is to people, anonymous internet trolls or otherwise, denigrating riders of Jorge Lorenzo's level of achievement.    

My information skills and ability to study are fairly verifiably good in real  life btw if you want to go down that line of argument. I had also previously read and remembered what KR said in those interviews regarding Lorenzo's visit to his ranch and riding the 800 Yamaha, which you clearly didn't when you started on this forum.

Credit to you for enlivening the forum, it is all fun anyway.




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DeGrasse

Joined:

Aug 13

Posts: 2324

DeGrasse says:

doohanfan

Already posted time and time again.

Brilliant 250cc riders like Carlos Lavado, Anton Mang, Christian Sarron, Sito Pons, and others were unable to adapt to 500s. Sarron, who had a single 500cc win, was brilliant as long as his tires were fresh. In 1988, he ran up a string of five-consecutive pole positions on a Yamaha 500 and finished fourth overall behind Eddie Lawson, Wayne Gardner, and Wayne Rainey. But Roberts, then in his first year as team owner of the Lucky Strike Yamaha team of Rainey and Kevin Magee, said in an interview that year, “That 250 style can get you on the pole, but when the tires are worn, you are f____d.”

www.cycleworld.com/2014/01/10/dirt-track-training-with-kenny-roberts-and-influence-on-top-level-grand-prix-racing/

If telling things as they are is "denigrating" then you will be stocked into the fanboyz zone, if you bother looking at the moto gp records and figure the lap times, partials, lap records and poles for Lorenzo Stoner and Marquez, when Stoner had the tyres he needed and was not injured (10 gp wins, total domination), then you will stop asking question and trying to imply i'm throwing flame bates.

And don't flatter yourself, i read K.R interview and he never said ANYTHING about Jorge riding ability bar this comment he made in 1988 about other 250 styles 500 riders which happened to be mostly 250 world champions.

What he was saying was that Jorge was a fighter, not that he was an  outstanding rider, he even said he was not a natural such as Rainey which says a lot, you accuse people of doing what you are doing yourself.

Not only i have done my home work previous to even signing in to this forum but i also tried these things on diverse M-C including 2 strokes and 4 strokes on tracks, the only technique i never tried was taping the rear brake to turn it, instead i used engine brake, since i never rode a 500 TZ before going to 4 strokes, i guess if you had such experience we wouldn't have this conversation in the first place because you would know what this is all about.

ps if you put 2+2 together you'll figure Roberts talking worn tyres and Massimo Meregalli saying "Jorge continued to have some difficulties, especially because of his riding style" after Sepang is exactly the same. It's lack of grip.

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Nostrodamus

Joined:

Mar 09

Posts: 4965

Nostrodamus says:

Quite right Doohanfan

It is obvious to anyone with eyes that the Terrapins riding style is very much classical european - wheels in line, high corner speed dominated. Always has been given his upbringing of minimoto, 125 & 250. He certainly wasn't a Rainey, Schwantz or Doohan on the 500 either. Of course that '250' style the Terrapin has used throughout his career has served him very well, just as it has Jorge Lorenzo.

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CHRainmaker

Joined:

Jul 11

Posts: 1740

CHRainmaker says:

I agree Doohanfan..

 Rossi's style is far more '250' than either Marquez or Stoner. To think otherwise is just deluded.

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BarkerBill

Joined:

Feb 12

Posts: 178

BarkerBill says:

GrassyArse

'Brilliant 250cc riders like Carlos Lavado, Anton Mang, Christian Sarron, Sito Pons'.

Grassy Arse, you talk of Sarron as brilliant, the also-ran Frog? He even cocked up as team manager by signing a finished Freddie Spencer. The Frogs, a nation of also-rans. Paricularly galling is your ability to write in the seeming confidence that you are articulate and knowledgeable in all aspects covered. La Frog.

Bill

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Bultoboy

Joined:

Apr 11

Posts: 3328

Bultoboy says:

When is sliding not sliding...?

I like this new take on it from Grassyarse.

Apparently, it's now possible to slide a bike without actually sliding it, just because the rear wheel is spinning quicker than the front.

Rossi was always sliding the bikes he rode passed the 250, and sliding means that the rear wheel rotates at a different speed than the front, slower on the brakes and faster on the gas, not necessarily that it goes sideways.

I'm still waiting for evidence of Rossi's dirt tracking past too

500 cc were monsters to control on the gas and if one didn't have dirt track experience it was near impossible to get the best of them,

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wosihound

Joined:

Jul 12

Posts: 2891

wosihound says:

250 style..?

Pigeon-holeing Rossi as a 250 rider makes not the slightest bit of difference..the simple fact is, Lorenzo has struggled more than Rossi over winter and into the first race.

Of Jorge's crash at Qatar, respected journalist Kevin Cameron said..The most dangerous thing a rider can do is to try to win on a bike that’s almost fast enough. Can Lorenzo change his style as Rossi has to be less dependent on edge grip?

Valentino may not have the dirt-track upbringing of Stoner or Hayden, but so what? 

Is it a badge of honour?

With factory electronics today, it's largely irrelevant. Riders were way more out of shape 10 years ago.

The evidence says that Rossi has proved how adaptable he is by winning titles on many different sizes and types of bike.

He has been fast all winter and rode a great race Sunday. He is not the washed-up mid-packer many so-called forum experts here predicted - which call me cynical, just maybe were agenda driven - and the Ducati is still uncompetitive.

We know who you are, and which side you bat for..in your twisted panties, fingers in earholes, eyes shut singing blah blah blah!

The Girls team.

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